The Business of Building Great Brands - Kelvin Soh

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Paul Spain:
I'm Paul Spain, futurist and chief executive at Gorilla Technology. I love seeing individuals and their organisations succeed, and this is really what the New Zealand Business Podcast is all about— helping you learn from some of our most incredible achievers. Today on the New Zealand Business Podcast, I'm joined by Kelvin Soh, a brand strategist, designer, and founder of Day Month Year. Kelvin has spent over 25 years helping to create and shape some of New Zealand's most recognisable and successful modern brands. Names such as 42 Below Vodka, Charlie's Juices, Stolen Rum, and with more recent standouts such as Boring Oat Milk and Picky Juices. Across his career, Kelvin's work has been connected with businesses that have gone on to generate some $500 million in combined exits, and he's also described the wider value of the companies he has worked with as being well into the billions. That hit rate is unusual, and it arguably places Kelvin amongst Australasia's leading thinkers when it comes to the relationship between brand, design, culture, and overall commercial value. New Zealand Business Podcast is proudly brought to you by One New Zealand alongside Gorilla Technology, making tech enablement and cybersecurity easy for midsize and smaller organisations, and by Outrun Global, remote staffing to help your local teams work smarter, not harder.

Paul Spain:
Kelvin, welcome to the podcast.

Kelvin Soh:
Thanks for having me, Paul.

Paul Spain:
Great, great to have you here. Now, I want to dive sort of, you know, straight, straight into, into this world of branding. Maybe you can tell us, were you always drawn to branding and packaging and the kind of work that I guess most people would know you for?

Kelvin Soh:
No, actually, I think when I was starting out as a design student at AUT, then called AUT, so AIT, I was not into branding at all. Actually, I really disliked it. I actually started out, once I graduated, I started out as an illustrator. I was drawing comic books, but then I also got into the music and film industry, and that's actually kind of where things started for me.

Paul Spain:
And in terms of just where you were born and where you grew up, maybe just walk us through how that fits into the picture and how you think that shaped your thinking.

Kelvin Soh:
So I was born in Malaysia and my family moved to New Zealand in the late '80s and I grew up in West Auckland and at a time when I think it was just before the sort of, I don't know what you'd call it, like the sort of bigger Asian migration boom, so it didn't feel like there were many Asian kids at school where I went and apart from my siblings that went to the same school. And so I think my earliest memories of moving to New Zealand felt like I was kind of moving to an alien land, right? So I think everything that was familiar, that made sense, suddenly didn't make sense anymore. And so I had to make new friends. So I think moving to New Zealand felt like being a cultural or social anthropologist where I'm learning things like what people eat, what people say, you're learning. I mean, I already spoke English because Malaysia is a Commonwealth country and so language, wasn't a barrier, but I think some of the cultural and social things, not barriers, but there were certainly things to learn. And so therefore you go, what do people, what kind of sport do they like, what kind of food do they eat, what are the, what are the sort of like common slang, you know, slang and language, and, you know, like just that, you know, and making new friends, right? So I think my earliest friends were like, you know, Samoan and Māori kids because I think our family structures felt similar. I think we laughed at similar things and we were close to our extended families who also lived in the same house and our parents were not shy to give us a smack or two if we were out of line. So I think we were like, hey, I think we can bond on that fact that our parents would give us a hard time if we're being a bit too naughty.

Kelvin Soh:
And so I think with that, that was my introduction to growing up in in New Zealand.

Paul Spain:
And in those early years, what shaped your interest in creative things and what were your creative outlets?

Kelvin Soh:
I think that from a young age, I was just drawn to drawing and drawn to— and using that as a vehicle of expression. So I think that I didn't yet know what my sort of future career would look like. I think growing up in a family where my siblings studied things like med school or accounting or IT. I was a black sheep even though I was the eldest in the family, and it took me a while to figure out what I wanted to do. And so in some ways I fell into the design course by accident, but I always loved drawing and making things.

Paul Spain:
And yeah. And at what point did you start getting a feeling that your enjoyment of drawing and creating was something that was actually a real talent?

Kelvin Soh:
Really young, actually. I think that when I was about 5, I remember like, you know, sort of teachers either singling me out and maybe as a young kid being good at something, you know, felt like a source of like, I guess, pride or affirmation or feeling encouraged, you know, and I enjoyed it too. So that was easy. So my mom sometimes— my mom will sometimes tell me that I was a really easy kid because she would take me anywhere as long as I had a pen and a piece of paper. I could be happily scribbling away in a corner while she was doing whatever she was doing. So in that regard, I was kind of low maintenance, you know, in terms of parenting. And I think that the enjoyment, I think, evolved into when I was doing design, but I think that Once I graduated, it became obvious to me that I think the things that really inspired me in terms of certain artists or certain designers or things like that, like I wanted that same, to channel that same feeling, which is probably why, you know, like comic books or films and music made sense because in those industries, there's always like a producer or a maker and an audience, you know, and then you were able to be fans of the things that they made, whether it be, you know, whether you were a Star Wars fan or if you were, um, uh, yeah, a fan of your— a particular band or, uh, you know, whatever the case might be. Like, and so I think that that was very natural from, uh, from design school.

Kelvin Soh:
And the, the world of branding and packaging and advertising, and that felt commercial or it felt inauthentic, you know, like it felt like it was harder for me to engage with, so I didn't really engage with that. And so it wasn't until much, much later that I realized that all the things that were commonplace within the music industry and film industry, that that could somehow be transported into these other worlds as well. And that was actually through my involvement with 42 Below Vodka, because I think Jeff Ross, the founder, having come from advertising, he wasn't— That enamored by, I think, enamored by how things were done in advertising. Therefore, he was very open to different ways of doing things, as long as those different ways manifested in the outcomes, um, that he was looking for, right? So which is obviously to grow his business, uh, for, uh, for 42 Below as a brand to be seen and loved and known. And so therefore The modalities of the music industry when applied to 42 Below Vodka meant that we could create fans of 42 Below Vodka. And that has continued all the way through in my career, the idea of being fan-first in the way I did things in terms of how I built brands.

Paul Spain:
And walk us through those earlier days where you were doing, you know, comics, music, film? What did that journey look like before you got into the more commercially oriented work?

Kelvin Soh:
I think that I remember my very first studio on High Street in Auckland and going across the road and meeting Nick Dwyer, who worked there at the time, who was a young DJ, and then just connecting with him And then I think at some point I think I volunteered to like do the flyer for his next gig. I think everything just sort of moved north from there and I felt like the authenticity that I was looking to have in terms of my practice was one that I didn't want it to feel like everything was telegraphed. I wanted to feel like things made sense for where I was at the time. So at the time I was like, I'm really into this genre of music. And here's a DJ that plays that genre of music. And so why don't I do a flyer for you? I'll do your poster. And so I think through that, in some ways through that community of being around musicians, but also I flirted with musicians as well, that very naturally became album cover work and poster work. And that momentum of working in a small town where people talk to other people meant that that could grow as a kind of career, even though I don't think I was thinking about it in career terms.

Kelvin Soh:
I think I was just— chasing my fascinations and being part of communities that made sense at the time. So yeah, that was kind of like how the earlier days mapped out. And so the, the path of that jumping to 42 Below was accidental, but it's because my old friend Darryl Parsons, who was essentially the acting creative director of 42 Below at the time when 42 Below was starting out, he had seen all the work I was doing in the music industry and he said, would you like to you know, design the bottle and, you know, create the brand identity for my friend's vodka project that he's sort of starting out with, you know. And so that was through his invitation that I started a different, uh, different path, you know. And, and through working with 42 Below, that then led to other things, uh, like, like Stolen Rum and Charlie's, and more recently with Pouring Oat Milk and Picky Juices, you know. Sort of accidentally walked into a corridor doing branding and packaging for beverage companies out of New Zealand, of all things. So that's certainly a pathway that I didn't imagine and I certainly was not interested in when I was a design student growing up.

Paul Spain:
Interesting. And your work in the music area, that seemed to really stand out at the time. I recall you won some New Zealand Music Awards and so on through that journey. As well. Was it hard to sort of step away from that into more commercially oriented sort of, you know, branding rather than just these little gigs that I imagine were probably a bit of a challenge also from a paying the bills perspective?

Kelvin Soh:
Oh, the music industry in some ways, it didn't force me out, but in some ways because of the way Napster and downloading was having such an effect on the industry, that in some ways the industry kind of shrunk, at least for people like myself, where I think you were able to sort of cobble together like a living doing, you know, different types of album covers and posters and gigs, you know, for hospitality, like even for venues. Like that kind of dried up. And so I think it was very natural. I didn't feel the need to jump and look for other types of work. It just sort of evolved very naturally. And I think especially when the, the modalities that I was, you know, kind of known for or getting comfortable with could apply to like product or beverage or things like that, could apply to other industries naturally. Like, it didn't feel like a big jump, I guess, you know. I didn't at all feel like I needed to get a real job or anything like that.

Kelvin Soh:
So, but what I loved about the time was, yes, you're right, I did, you know, have to have a couple of music awards, and I loved working closely with musicians. And, um, and, you know, got to kind of work with some amazing legends, you know, people like Shane Carter from Straitjacket Fits and Dimmer, or Chefoo, and bands like Goodshirt, you know. And so, like, but we were all kind of starting out at the same time, you know. And so it was very, um, very natural to be just, you know, young and out and about and just, hey, I'll do something for you, and then, you know, we'll we'll work together and put something out. So yeah, but I remember it being a very inspiring time, you know, like, and I feel like the old guy in the room to go, well, back in, back in the days in Auckland when we had these venues and, you know, but I think it did feel very exciting and vibrant. And along with the music industry, I was also kind of close to, you know, also other, other artists and working with artists and photographers. And maybe they came in after, you know, where I was also working with artists on their publications We had a publishing label really briefly. And so I think that participation in culture in the broader sense on the ground level in Auckland felt like a really inspiring way to grow up as a creative person in Auckland.

Paul Spain:
And I guess it sounds like sort of unwittingly you went through a digital disruption of sorts, right? Well, the music industry did. You were impacted by it. But conveniently it happened to all fit together that you weren't sort of standing there with nothing to do and no income.

Kelvin Soh:
Yeah, exactly. I think in some ways I moved from film industry where I did some storyboard work and then music industry. And then when it sort of like evolved at some point to different industries, I guess, I started to work with, yeah, like with the beverage stuff, you know, 42 Below, with the success and highly publicized exit that obviously got the attention of other founders, you know, who got in touch and wanted to do things. And that's how we met, yeah, the guys from Charlie's Juice or Stolen Rum, etc. But then at the same time, the sort of more cultural side of what I was doing evolved into working with, like I said, artists, photographers, but also fashion designers, you know. So like, for example, I, you know, we worked on like the brand identity for like Deadly Ponies or like Wynn Hamlin and Maggie Marilyn. So there was a sort of, I guess, a very natural evolution substituting in some ways like one quite creative industry for another quite creative industry. Um, and then, uh, the, the beverage and the sort of almost more like commodity branding stuff, it's almost like that's the outlier bit.

Kelvin Soh:
But over time I realized that maybe because of the string of successes in terms of the exits, etc., I started to realize that maybe, maybe I've got it all wrong, you know. So I think I self-identified as an artist, and then I did this branding stuff on the side when people asked me to. But then when you're up to like hundreds of millions of dollars in terms of exits, you start to go, maybe I'm a terrible artist and maybe I'm a really good brand designer. So at some point I had an existential crisis to go, oh man, who am I again? You know, maybe, um, maybe, you know, like maybe the way I do things in, in, in branding and doing things perhaps the wrong way, or the right kind of wrong way, is the thing that actually what makes it work, you know. And then so I think I started to look closer into, into the methods and philosophies and try to reflect on what is it that I do that's different from the way other people do it. Why does it keep working? Well, it seems to be working, you know. So I didn't have an ego about trying to be some like kind of like big dog brand designer, brand strategist person. You know, if anything, it was like through reflection and going, actually, maybe I'm quite good at this because I didn't want to be here, and maybe because I'm coming at it like a person that grew up in the music industry and not in some sort of advertising brand industry.

Kelvin Soh:
And, and I think through that process of reflection worked out a lot of stuff that I use today quite intentionally, you know, in terms of, uh, how I build brands and the philosophy behind how I build brands.

Paul Spain:
Now I'm interested in delving more into the 42 Below vodka story. That was quite a big deal at the time as they were growing. And then when ultimately the acquisition came through, I think it was $138 million New Zealand dollars, that acquisition close to $100 million US. As to what that journey actually looked like. This was, as I recall it, something that was, was it brewed in a bathtub or something? The founding story anyway was like, hold on, how did it get from that to being such a successful company listed on the stock exchange and then ultimately acquired? And I'm picking there's some pretty interesting lessons through that journey from the budgets and so on were or weren't and how that ended up coming together.

Kelvin Soh:
I think that for me, what I was or am most grateful for was, I guess, the trust that Geoff Ross had shown to the creatives within the team, right? So Darryl, myself in the first instance, and then more people joined and we were all kind of self-employed, so we were just you know, being pulled into things as when needed, right? And I was with them for about 8 years from doing their identity and packaging, um, and then, you know, doing their campaign stuff when, when there was advertising stuff. And then, you know, even, uh, stuff that were business-to-business, you know, needs in terms of, oh, we need sales collateral for bartenders and things like that, or, or events like the Cocktail World Cup. So I think it evolved as their needs evolved as they grew as a business going from local to international. But for me, I was grateful for the trust. And also, I think that in some ways, having to invent for ourselves ways of work, thinking and working relevant to that particular business, that particular industry, at a time when they didn't have the capital to do anything and everything that they wanted. So in some ways, it's a, it's a quasi-number 8 fencing wire type of story. And in some ways, we were like, oh, we were accidentally doing content marketing. We were accidentally, accidentally doing viral marketing and things that we now have terms and words for, but we didn't at the time.

Kelvin Soh:
And so logically it was like, okay, you know, our client has this vodka, he doesn't have any money to do advertising, what do we do? And so the pathway to then doing marginally offensive, uh, animations that were made in Flash, a now defunct, uh, piece of technology to be, to be shared online by people downloading their, their emails and then forwarding it to their friends. Like when that— when it was, uh, you know, it's really hard to do like social sharing you do now with YouTube and Instagram, but it took a bit of effort, right? So therefore the creative had to, had to be punching at the level that was interesting and funny enough for someone to, to, to take the trouble to share with their friends, you know. And so I think that the fundamentals of like going, well, this is how we're creating new value for that business, this is how we're creating awareness and how we're creating, um, you know, a bit of joy, you know, in terms of using that as a vehicle for really fun creative things, you know. And so I think like that layering of value, whether it be a funny t-shirt or an invitation that you couldn't throw away. You know, we realized that actually we can add a lot of value here even though they're not really, you know, spending the same kind of marketing dollars as a competitor might. And so, yeah, so we understood the value of creativity. And I think it wasn't until I worked on their water, they had their water brand, a spring water brand called 420 or 420, that we also named and designed the bottle of. I think that I always assumed that 42 Below's success, while it was heavily involved was because, oh, the vodka is really good, or the team's really good.

Kelvin Soh:
And I just didn't really think that maybe that the, the creatives that were involved had a much larger role to play in its success. It wasn't until we did the water, and because I think water is like an ultimate control experiment because it's like not really that special in some ways, and therefore the, the, the packaging design and the name and the marketing, the fact that people loved it, and the fact that I saw kind of cool art kids walking around that and refilling that water bottle even though you weren't supposed to. It was like a single-use, you know, like plastic, plastic water bottle. I felt like, oh wow, people resonated with it and loved it as an object, and it had meaning, I guess. And so I think through the 42 Below, um, time, I started to realize that the work that we do, we can create additional value if we can create meaning. And that goes well and truly beyond the fundamentals of in some ways what a brand exists to do, which is to provide attribution. You know, you go, who made that vodka? Who made that water? Who made that drink? Who made that chocolate bar? And you go, oh, and that provides attribution. But then moving north of that to much more abstract notions of value, like, you know, um, like, uh, you know, it looking beautiful, or it looking, uh, it really resonates with me, or that made me, you know, made me feel part of a particular group, or, you know.

Kelvin Soh:
So understanding that there was a lot of room for a brand to move from really functional basic needs of information and communication to much more abstract notions of value. And I think I became fascinated by that movement, and we still play in that sort of, that spectrum today. Some brands, I think brands that are easier to copy need more of the sort of abstract stuff. Otherwise you go, why should I care about this rum or this oat milk or this, juice, um, is because brand and storytelling and design and all that stuff, I think, adds more value at that end. Whereas I think if you're a company like Rocket Lab, I feel like I don't have much value to add to Rocket Lab because Rocket Lab is inherently valuable and interesting. And so at best, I can make them a nice logo and some nice-looking communications, or maybe help remove the frictions from some of their communications to go, oh, this is how you could say that in a different way or more interesting. But I'm not creating inherent value. But I think in the commodity space, I feel like the brands provide that compound value that you sort of do it once and that it continues to be the thing that people notice first about a new beverage, right? So it's really prevalent in the beverage industries to lean into branding quite a lot, and it can be quite a difference maker.

Paul Spain:
Now, how did Day Month Year, or DDMMYY, kick off, as I think it was known initially? And how, you know, how did you decide to name it as such?

Kelvin Soh:
I think that there was a— after, after, um, you know, graduating, working as an illustrator, then falling into the music industry, accidentally doing— discovering 42 Below, and there was like a sort of meandering journey. At some point, you know, I had a partnership with a friend of mine called The Wilderness, and at some point we stopped doing that. At some point I think that we needed to find new meaning in terms of like, you know, things we wanted to do. So we sort of parted company. And for 2 years, I kind of think of it as, ironically, we were called The Wilderness. I think I then had my wilderness years for 2 years where I was trying to rediscover what my practice needed to be. So during that time, I actually went back to school. I went back and did a postgraduate in— In what? In art, I finished my master's, I was doing research, I was kind of exploring creative projects that were just simply not commercial in nature at all and I started publishing in print, so I think that I was just sort of trying to reset and figure out what was important to me and during that time because I was doing my master's in art, etc., I discovered the work of a Japanese artist named On Kawara, And he made these paintings, they're called the date paintings or they're called today paintings, where he would just simply paint the date of the day that he was painting the painting, if that makes sense.

Kelvin Soh:
So if today, you know, is— what's the date today? If today is the 8th of October, he would just paint a painting the 8th of October or whatever, right? And so you could see it as the world's most boring paintings and they're They are, they were. Or you could sort of see it the way I saw it at the time, which is like it's an incredible like it's an incredible symbol of presentness. Is to go today is today and I'm not going to get another today. And so what what is what and it doesn't matter what happened yesterday and maybe it doesn't happen. It doesn't matter what happens tomorrow, but what What should today be? You know, and so that that call to that call for presentness is what inspired me to name the studio DDMYY or Day Month Year as a sort of nod to Ankawara's paintings. And that in terms of the beginnings of the studio formed formed sort of like a philosophical position, right? So for example, if you think of a famous artist or a famous designer, they're sometimes known for. a style, right? To go, oh, you're the, you're the expressive style person, or you're the, um, you know, minimalist, you know, um, brutalist, you know, kind of design person, whatever the case might be. Um, being present means that every project is different from another project, so that we didn't really have a style.

Kelvin Soh:
Or if you call it, it's a style to have no style, you know, to be present. So I kind of liken it to like actors, right? So you have actors like maybe Christian Bale that would sort of inhabit a role, and one minute he's crazy skinny, next minute he's Batman. Next minute he's balding, and, you know, he inhabits a character and tries to lose himself in that character, essentially being present within the character at any given moment. And then you have certain actors that are essentially playing the same character through multiple movies. I'm thinking of Jason Statham, you know, or you think of Al Pacino, and at some point he would do a monologue and do a bit of a rant, and I'm like, I can't remember which movie which rant was from, you know. So, so you have certain actors that are always consistent in their style in some ways, or how they handle a character, and that's why they get typecast in a good way and get hired for that. And there are others that try to somehow work with a character and a story and inhabit that world. So that sort of inhabiting of a project was sort of at the heart of a De Manthea project, and which is why our work, when you look at it, it kind of doesn't make sense when you put it all into one frame.

Kelvin Soh:
It's like, How could the same studio create branding for an oat milk and create album cover for Shane Carter and design a bottle to curating an event to designing publications? You know, like it's sort of all over the place, but there's a strong consistent thread through all of it. And that is that sort of belonging piece, you know, is true. So whether we're doing it for a fashion brand that's starting out, We're thinking about their audience and how they might engage emotionally and meaningfully with that particular brand. And we do the same for an oat milk or a beer or a vodka or rum. You know, the philosophy is actually the same, it just looks different, right? And that's sort of the philosophy that lies underneath Daymonthea as a studio, is that we kind of tackle each thing as it comes. And partly because I think I'm a big fan of good surprises. So the novelty of thinking about a category or industry that I'd never thought of before is very interesting. So before we worked on rum, I had no interest or any knowledge of rum.

Kelvin Soh:
Before we worked on urban, before we worked on, you know, whatever category industry, before we worked with, um, you know, a top 30, uh, crypto coin, I hadn't thought about decentralized ledgers before. So it's all kind of like, hey, but like, again, like the actor, it's like I'm about— I just got a part playing a role as a fireman. So now, as part of my methodology, I'm going to do work experience as a, as a, as a fireman for months leading up to, you know, I'm trying to understand that character, you know, from a, from an actual experiential standpoint, you know. And that some ways is, is what we like to do. We like to kind of, as opposed to just working to, uh, working with the same industry over and over again Um, you could call beverages in some ways one industry, or you can see actually the, the different kind of different genres that exist that we've played, you know. So rum is very different from oat milk, it's very different from, you know, from vodka, very different from wine, etc., etc., and beer. So you go, they actually work very, very differently even though they're all classed under beverages. Different genres exist.

Kelvin Soh:
So yeah, so I think in terms of my origin story and Day Month Year, I think it was that that period that I think nudged me to form a studio again. And in part also, I wanted to fund the nonprofit stuff we were doing myself because I think I was applying for grants and things like that, and they were always erratic. Sometimes we would get grants, and as we were like at the time doing publishing and some of our publications were ending up in places like the Tate Modern or MoMA in New York, to maintain the relationship with that particular community and those distributors meant that we needed a more consistent form of funding, and that could only come from some of the commercial gigs, you know, because it was a bit of a lottery with arts funding. Yeah, so all of those conditions or factors kind of dovetailed together, and the sort of studio being, you know, being born was the result of all the conditions at the time. And over time, you know, we shifted a lot of our Emphasis, you know, maybe we did a lot of art fashion stuff to begin with, and then we started to maybe as as as part of that existential crisis of realizing that maybe I'm a better brand designer than someone that's like a designer in the art or fashion worlds, is that there was a pivot to go okay maybe we'll focus more on working with entrepreneurs founders and marketers instead of working purely with the creative communities. And so so then there was a visible shift in terms of what we, what we produced as a studio. And now I think we're probably almost exclusively very much focused on the business community and entrepreneurs, founders, and marketers rather than creative industries. But I think that I'm thinking of the creative industries now more in that, um, you know, in that sort of more the education, maybe the nonprofit.

Kelvin Soh:
How can we encourage the next generation of creatives that are coming out of New Zealand and and support them and things like that. So yeah, so that's kind of that sort of journey of the studio.

Paul Spain:
So how do you, how do you describe brand for that? You know, how do you break, break that down?

Kelvin Soh:
Brand, I think that people obviously think of— most people, and I don't— I've in some ways given up on trying to convince people otherwise— most people think of brands as logos, right? So when, when you start a new business, you think, I need to get a brand, I need to get my branding done, you know? So you go, who do I know that can help me get branding done? Do you call a graphic designer? And I need a logo. And then when you feel like that you got a logo and you got some business cards and you got some— a website up, you got my branding is done, but it's actually not correct, you know. So I think that you have, you have a brand identity done, a visual brand identity, but you don't really have a brand. So brand, if you go far back enough into sort of the origins of the term, you know, you think of where the word— why do we have that word brand? It You know, it can be easily remembered as like cattle branding. You know, basically, which cows are my cows? You know, and so that's a way of marking ownership. And so it functions like a distinctive marker of ownership in the first instance. And so you go, that's a very basic need. Which cows are my cows? It's just information.

Kelvin Soh:
And then if you go up a step, branding also functions like reputation. So brand, so where you go, okay, I've got, you know, you think of like the way brands operated 100 years ago, 150 years ago, you go, hey, that cola is quite delicious. Who makes that cola? Okay, it's Coca-Cola, you know, or that, you know, the company that makes these screw heads, they're very robust and they're very versatile, you know, they're very, they don't break, they're very, very well made. I wanna keep buying those ones and not those other ones that are really faulty, right? So then there's reputation, it carries reputation and trust. And again, then moving north of that to a very modern, contemporary way of understanding brands in the field of capitalism, it's actually starting to segment into very abstract ways where branding now works more like perception mixed with reputation mixed with prejudice mixed with bias, where you go, I like that chocolate bar more than that chocolate bar because I like the packaging more, or I like the, you know, or, um, or I'm drawn to it for that reason, or, um, I'm drawn to this fashion brand because, you know, like, it's, it's a lot more abstract in, in the, in the way that brands currently operate. So brand for me is that sort of intersection of reputation, perception, prejudice, and, and in some ways it's a cluster of those 3 words. And so The most useful way I feel that people, people could think about branding is to actually substitute it for like the words, the word reputation or business reputation. So if you say, if you've just finished your brand identity and put your website up and you go, I finished my branding, or what do you think of my branding, it wouldn't be correct because you're saying, what do you think of my business reputation? You go, well, you don't have a business reputation.

Kelvin Soh:
There's no, there's no reason, even though it looks nice, there's no reason to believe that you are good at what you do, or there's no reason to believe. So, so I think that over time, when a brand, uh, truly has truly earned its value in the market, then you get that sort of heart flutter when you— if you're hiring someone and then you look at their CV and they say, oh, I was, you know, 5 years as the chief marketing officer of Uber, and you go, oh, you know. And so before even thinking, before it— your rational brain processes it you might be— you might feel that feeling of being impressed, you know. That irrational kind of heart flutter is, is that sort of perceptual value of being a high-ranking senior, senior member of a company like Uber or something like that, right? And, and for the brands that I've worked with, um, at one stage, you know, Boring Oat Milk was not a household name, you know, or that, um, 42 Below is not a household name. It wasn't spoken about in business circles the way it is now. It was just a guy's sort of, you know, a guy, an ex-ad guy's dream, you know, to do that thing. And, um, and so I think that that's in some ways a very, very kind of informal way of understanding, um, whether brands are strong or not in, in this day and age, you know, is whether do people care about it? Does it matter? Does it, does it actually form a positive bias in some ways? Like when you think of the way reputation does, right? So in the same way that if you were, you could be a plumber And if you have a great reputation as a solid, trustworthy, really great plumber, you would get really positive word of mouth amongst customers, right? They go, do you know someone who's a great plumber? So the way that operates on a word of mouth sense operates, which is also true for a beverage or anything else. So in some ways what we do is trying to create, Uh, the, the best possible conditions for our clients to succeed and to increase the probability of success as they define it.

Kelvin Soh:
You know, some of our clients start out and declare that they want to sell their business in 5 years, and they want, they want the type of brand identities that we've created that, that support that type of goal. Whereas others, I think, would just want a business that will stick around for like 100 years, you know, and just be this, this sort of enduring Nigerian-New Zealand business that can continue to contribute value to New Zealand over a long period of time without having to be sold to an international conglomerate or multinational. So I think the success as our clients define it is really what we help them to do. And we, I guess, are working on the brand, the perceptual building, the aesthetics, the design, etc. And any means that we have access to ourselves to help them achieve their dream. And so, uh, and lucky for us and lucky for them, maybe, you know, that we've done it a few times where I think that our clients are able to, to actually get to where they wanted to get to in the time that they've done it, I suppose, which is like an exit. It's like, I don't want to glorify, um, M&A as like the only measure of value. It's a very convenient measure of value because it's crystallized value in the moment in time to go, we've sold this company for this this amount, you know.

Kelvin Soh:
So it's, it's, it's useful because it's measurable at a moment in time. But I think there are a lot of great businesses that are still owned by New Zealanders, um, that we've been part of and we still, you know, we're still involved with that haven't been— they don't have that kind of lazy kind of number to be able to, to call out, but they're no less meaningful in terms of, um, in terms of businesses in New Zealand.

Paul Spain:
Now our, our audience sort of, you know, spans pretty much any and every sector of business across the country and international listeners too. How do you think of the differences of the importance of brand across different sectors? You've talked about where your most visible sort of successes have been, but you've been involved in many, many industries. You've built the Gorilla Technology brand identity, for instance, in varying iterations over a long period. How do you sort of think of those different opportunities? What you can do, for instance, in beverages is very different with a brand than what you can do with a technology services firm like Guerrilla. So how have you tended to work with those different sort of constraints and opportunities?

Kelvin Soh:
Yeah, the most visible parts of my and our practice are obviously the consumer-facing ones because I guess in some ways the distribution creates visibility for those brands, right? So people go, what kind of work have you done? And I'm rattling off essentially your local supermarket. So that's saying, oh, Picky Juices, or it feels like the new world is our portfolio, which is easy when you're meeting someone who wants us to work in that category. But perhaps less visible would be our work for the technology sector or in business-to-business. And in some ways it works differently depending on industry. So for example, not many people know that we've actually been involved in a lot of American-based crypto or Web3-related startups. In some ways, approaching those industries with the naivety of people who built music-related brands or beverage-related brands is useful because you're still dealing with humans and human nature. So one of the most interesting things about working with the, you know, the Web3 space, for example, is working with technology companies that are trying to make their technology or their platforms known to developers, right? So then you go, oh, it's this— it's, it's community marketing once again. So you go, why would a developer start using your tech instead of something they normally use? And so there's— and then you're now kind of like, this is very familiar to me.

Kelvin Soh:
In the same way that we're working with bartenders, now we're working with developers or people who essentially validate a particular product for others to use. And so, but one of the key things that we do in B2B is actually how the things that make strong consumer brands can actually contribute to stronger B2B brands. Um, and, and that is in the realm of like memorability and clarity. So for example, when you think of, uh, something that's a big ticket item like that you've purchased, so whether it be like a car or a washing machine or, you know, things that you don't need all the time, But when it's broken or when you need a new car, that's when you go, I'm thinking about cars. But then every, perhaps every ad or instance or brand that you've encountered prior to that moment of need will come to mind. And maybe you will start by, you know, maybe you start with a Google search. Maybe you start by going straight to a website of a car that you'd seen before that you quite liked, but you knew that you didn't need to buy straight away. So I think that This sort of need-based recall is really important for B2B brands.

Kelvin Soh:
So for example, if you're in a services company and you, uh, you're not needed all the time, but then when the moment arises, you hope that they remember what you do when the need arises. So you could be, um, could be a plumber, you could be, uh, a, a cybersecurity company, you could be a branding firm to go, look, Mike, I need, I need a new brand now, who should I call? Or I need some packaging. So In that regard, I think that for industries that are not consumer-facing, brands play a different type of game in terms of recall. But then additionally, if it's larger companies, so for example, I've loosely done a little bit of work with like Spark or what was Vodafone, et cetera. And sometimes when you have businesses with like 1,000 or 2,000 people, sometimes brand can also work internally as a unifying force, you know. So when we're rebranding, um, for example, we work with a shelving company, a 30-year shelving company, and rebranded them, you know. Part of that is also resetting how they see themselves, you know, particularly when there are— there were, uh, there are, I guess, a company that was built up of multiple acquisitions. So different companies, different cultures living under kind of one kind of collage, uh, bento box type of company.

Kelvin Soh:
And the rebrand can really reset identity for everybody, you know. And so with that, it also resets how they communicate themselves, uh, to their customers in future. This is who we are, this is what we stand for, this is what's important to us. And so it's a different kind of, um, it's a different kind of engagement to work with, uh, work with businesses as a kind of quasi-therapist to work with the founders of a 30-year business to go, what's important to you and, and what should be discarded and what should be, um, perhaps reinvigorated, you know, for the next generation of people running your company and things like that. You know, sometimes it's like a— I think of it like a Marie Kondo exercise, like working through someone's wardrobe and like working out what's important. And then on the flip, interviewing their customers to go, what do you think of this 30-year-old business, and what do you find most valuable? And overlaying that data and go, okay, you think of yourselves in this manner and your customers do too, cool, so we're good. So I think that as an attribute or a principle should be maintained as we move the company into the future in terms of how we tell stories about your company and what we should— what we should even name your company, right? So, so that's a different type of engagement too, you know, but then it's such a big ticket thing, right? Do you go— that as a process is much longer, it's a lot more intensive, um, you know, and, and the, the engagement, you know, that it's like you're dealing with, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars, or, and, you know, in terms of what they expect their customers to pay for their, um, their services or products, of course it's quite different from a, you know, $5 oat milk, or, you know. So it's a— it feels less risky for someone to take a punt on a beverage they've never heard of before, um, in the, in the aisles of a supermarket.

Kelvin Soh:
A little more so if you're buying a $100 bottle of, uh, of, of, of, of wine or rum or vodka, you know, like it's a bit more like, oh, is it any good? Um, you know, will I be embarrassed if it's no good? And, you know, things like that. And everything gives you, it gives you clues that you're not going to be embarrassed because they've put a lot of effort into the bottle design or the branding or the marketing to go, I think I think it's okay if you're taking a chance, but yet it's less of a risk to take a chance on a juice in the supermarket that's on sale, and that you might fall in love with it, maybe you don't. But in B2B, I think the layers of building trust with brand as it relates to the business and the business needs, it's more complex, but no less interesting, I think, for us.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, I guess to me it makes me think of you as a brand futurist, someone that's looking at the past and then looking at the picture and at the future and sort of weaving that together in terms of a very strategic outcome. So this is obviously, it's not a 5-minute process to work through for you, I'm picking.

Kelvin Soh:
No, yeah, it takes a while, but I think Because if you think of, again, brand through that lens of business reputation, that has a very future value type of thing. You know, if you think of like, if you're intentionally growing your business reputation, AKA brand, that has that compounding effect in the future, you know. And all the work that you've done before and all the campaigns you've done before, you think of, you think of Nike, for example. I mean, not to go back to kind of consumer branding, but you think of even though they're in a bit of a tough spot at the moment, for most of their existence, they've compounded and kept compounding to the point where they're known by the mark and even the mass awareness of what that little tick symbol, the swoosh means or the golden arches or like in terms of just pure awareness, whether we love them in the future is another thing. And that's why branding isn't done on day one, because you can be super famous and still fail. You know, you can be super known, you know, and fail because people don't find value, or if they lose trust, you know, in you as an organisation or as a business. And so, yeah, so branding is very much about the future. And with that, you know, the, the engagement with us as a studio— when it's— I sometimes think of it like infrastructure.

Kelvin Soh:
I say, you know, that what we do is is infrastructure building for a business. And with that, it's not something that could be easily approved, you know, like it goes all the way up to the owners. And because it's like, this is a big shift, we all have to be aligned and we have to make the capital available to do this. And then we're going to have to rebadge all our things and reproduce. So it's not a small project, a rebrand, for example. A founder coming in and who just quit their job to start their dream business making something or other. Like, that's a different thing because they're starting from zero, and that's a very different type of responsibility again, because it's like, well, I'm just— I've just quit my job and I've triple mortgaged my house, and so I'm entrusting you to help me build my dream business. So you feel a very different, um, different type of responsibility.

Kelvin Soh:
And, uh, and so the conversations with, um, the, the 42 Belows, the Stolen Realms, the Boring Oat Milks, you know, they began like that We're starting with you from scratch and help me build my dream. And so it's exciting for different reasons, but they all affect the future. I feel like as those consumer brands are now in different international markets, there's a compound value of being able to reuse even things that we created in year 1. And certain modes of thinking, certain copy lines, certain jokes, you go, oh, they've never seen these before, so we can reuse it again. And in some ways then the joy of discovering if the jokes do land in another country where English isn't their first language. So I think that it's a very different stage now being 5 years in and in Southeast Asian markets. And it's something that I'm very curious about, you know, to figure out for them. But yes, definitely I think branding is a compounding asset that just keeps, you know, done right, I think it can, like managing your reputation, could hold tremendous value in the future.

Kelvin Soh:
And there's a great— there's a guy, there's a really smart marketer, um, his name is, uh, Rory Sutherland, who said that, um, he said that branding is capitalism on, on easy mode or cheat mode, you know, which I think that he's making— he's making a— he's, he's making an extreme point, and it's not exactly cheat mode, easy mode, but I do believe that, um, having a great brand or a good reputation is a bit like having a sharper, sharper blade, you know. It makes every every effort hopefully easier and more effective, you know, as you're going through life as a founder entrepreneur. And that's certainly what I found in terms of, I can't speak for every founder entrepreneur, but in terms of the way we've experienced it and the way that I've tried to, you know, use branding to help our clients grow, I think it's certainly proven to be the case. And it's nice when the clients literally say that in like testimonials, you know, to say like with Picky, like the CEO of Apollo who owns both Boring Oat Milk, and Picky Juices. I think in an interview with NBR, they said that the rebrand that we did for Picky Juices, which used to be called the Apple Press, helped grow sales by 34%, which is a great data point that we don't normally have. We don't normally have a before and after photo where you go, I used to weigh this much and now I look like this, like a fitness before or after photo. They're essentially giving us like a before and after statement in terms of what the business did before and what the business does now after the rebrand when every other variable was the same. You know, the products were the same.

Kelvin Soh:
Yeah. The bottle was the same. It's just a different, in some ways, a different emotional impression, which helped to open markets for new, like new international markets that weren't interested before, but also open up to new audiences. So they say, oh, it's really now popular with Gen Z and that, and my kids are now into it now. Now they want the tote bag and they want the t-shirt, which in turn becomes, This is that compounding thing where now it's like the customers are kind of providing free publicity to other customers because they want to wear the t-shirt. So there's a very sort of natural kind of positive uplift that comes with that kind of enthusiasm, right? So we try to build brand stories and brand premises that allow for that compounding effect to happen.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, that's really interesting. In fact, I remember being stopped. I was coming out of a car park and someone Yeah, was looking at me driving Gorilla-branded car and, you know, I must have window down. He interacted with me and was saying, that's an amazing logo. I want a t-shirt with that logo on it. Right. And it's like, oh, that's not what you kind of tend to hear every day.

Kelvin Soh:
Yeah, it's— I think we like— I like to think that because of my experience growing, I guess, working in the music industry in the first instance, like when we started working on brand and trying to create awareness for the companies that we're working with, the sort of common sense logic of how do you market a band, a new band, makes a lot of sense. So you think of like if I had a, Um, you know, if, if I want— if I was an emerging band, I was part of an emerging band and I wanted to, uh, you know, grow awareness in Christchurch, in the first instance you go, well, do we know anyone in Christchurch? Do we have, you know, people in Christchurch that are following our Instagram account? And you might go, hey, could you help us put up some posters or publicize a gig that we're doing? Maybe only 25 people show up. If we are good as a band, maybe they become fans and they tell 10 people, right? So that sort of deep and narrow approach of again engaging, uh, engaging people and then growing a fan base. Like, that's exactly what we're doing in the, in like the, in the beverage space. And so what we do is that when we're creating, um, a name and a premise and identity, we think of what, what allows us to play that type of, type of game that we did with bands back in the day. So obviously calling a brand Boring and having Boring on a t-shirt or having the barista wear a Making Coffee Is Boring t-shirt that gets a bit of a laugh if you hadn't heard of the brand before, and you can't believe the audacity of the bartender wearing that at work. It's like, does your boss know you're wearing this t-shirt? You know, like that kind of thing that makes it easier to have that kind of fan-first approach work, right? Whereas if we'd called the oat milk Mrs. Moore's Oat Milk, you know, like that whole t-shirt conversation would never happen.

Kelvin Soh:
So I think that compound effect of a great brand premise, making marketing easier in future, is part of the modality of how we're able to grow these, these, um, CPG startups out of New Zealand and the efficiency that comes with that. And so, or sometimes I like to call it like that, the marketing before the marketing starts, before the marketing starts, right? And so it just makes that whole— it makes promotion and all that kind of stuff easier, you know, even though it feels like the same dad joke for 5 years to go, something something is boring. Like on Morgan's, the founder of Morgan, her email signature, it says Morgan is boring. So every staff member has like a, Paul is boring or Calvin is boring. And it's like, haha, there's a bit of a— and I thought that we'd be tired of it after a year or two, but it's 5 years in and they still use it. And then when they introduce themselves into a city, they just create these occasionally offensive billboards for some people to say Christchurch is boring or Wellington is boring. So they're having a bit of a banter, a bit of a laugh. And this is something that stretches all the way back to when we were doing 42 Below.

Kelvin Soh:
Like, they had one headline that I remember having to do the ad for that Darryl wrote, and it was, drink it straight or gay, which for some people are like, hey, this is really offensive to the gay community. I don't think you should do that, right? But what they don't know is that 42 Below were also big sponsors of like the HERO Festival and things like that. So they were known to the community And they could kind of like, oh, you're just, you're just having a bit of fun with us, you're just teasing us. And so that made sense. So you can almost play a certain kind of gag if you're also seen to be almost like you're one of us, you know, like you get it, we get it, you're having a bit of fun with us and you're allowed to play that game with us. And so I think that notion of creating belonging, you know, is something that is really important to how we build brands. So when I think of belonging, I think of how how identity intersects with community, how it intersects with creativity, how it intersects with culture. And so all the brands that we create, certainly in the consumer space, have that in it.

Kelvin Soh:
Like I basically created a framework over 15 to 20 years that I use for all the brands. And then now I feel like I've got it down to a science. I know how to do it. I have a formula now to a point, and I've kind of worked on it for 20, 25 years. And so every new brand that comes in now, I think benefits from in some ways the tinkering that has happened before them. And I think Boring Oat Milk and Picky Juices would never have existed if not for 42 Below, Stolen Rum, and Charlie's, and basically the foundations of that mode of thinking and working. And so, yeah, so that's—

Paul Spain:
Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting. So walk us through the journey with Boring Oat Milk. You know, what was the first interaction that you had with the founders? What was, you know, the story through that? Because you started, there was no brand name and so on, right? So how did, how did that kind of look over time?

Kelvin Soh:
Morgan and her husband Nick approached me, um, having seen some of our work before in like in beverages. And at the time, Morgan and Nick had a oat cake or oat biscuit brand called Bonny. And then realized that, you know, I think the sort of running joke that Morgan sometimes talks about is that this is oat biscuits or oat cakes is in the FMCG category, as in fast-moving consumer good. It's not moving that fast. And so she's like, I would like to actually, play in a faster category. And I think that she was already sort of like 7 years deep or whatever in terms of working with oats and knew the health benefits of oats, but also was really into the sort of the agribusiness benefit of oats to New Zealand in terms of rethinking how we use our land. And so they were like, and oat milk was observed to be a new but growing category. So like, well, we're gonna pivot from oat cakes to oat milk.

Kelvin Soh:
One of the principles of branding that's, that's really important to me and how I work is to start with a truth. And so, uh, in the case of Stolen Rum, it was named after the, the truth of the category. When you think of the history of rum and skullduggery and like, you know, and, and naughtiness, like 100 years ago, or rum, you know, being smuggled, uh, when, when there was prohibition, when you weren't allowed to sell and distribute rum. And so it made sense that to go deep to the truth of the category, to pull something out, right? In a category that also had, you know, sea monsters and captains. And so it was, as a category, it was very fun and silly. And it can have a brand called Stollen and have fun with it, you know. In, in the case of oat milk, what was true about the category is that there's nothing more you need to know about milk. Everyone drinks milk.

Kelvin Soh:
It would be silly. It'd be like selling water and saying, this helps quench your thirst. You're like, are you kidding me? Like, I know that, right? I know what water is or does. I don't need to— I don't have water explained to me unless you've got some crazy secret ingredient that's worth talking about. I don't need you to explain water to me, you know. And so the attention therefore goes to its vessel, its packaging, you know, like the brand Anew that we worked on, you know, which uses a plant-based plastic. So that's new and different for water, otherwise it's just another water brand. In the case of oat milk, what's true about the category is that everyone knows it.

Kelvin Soh:
And so, you know, you can't say it has, you know, dairy milk has calcium for your bones or whatever, whatever. So you go, what do you say about something that doesn't require an introduction? And during the process, because it was quite difficult, I remember talking to Sam and my team and we were just standing outside trying to work out what to do for this project. And I said to him, to be honest, I'm finding this project really, really boring. And as that thought left my mouth,

Paul Spain:
Yeah.

Kelvin Soh:
I sort of caught it in some ways and went to Stan. I was like, what if we just called it boring? Like, is that— would that be silly? You know, and but then as we were testing it, we realized, man, it's got a lot of legs, you know. And as we were writing the brand story, which is still their brand story, we were like, actually, milk is boring. And we realized that all the truisms that come with milk, you know, milk is boring. But cappuccinos and flat whites are interesting, and smoothies are interesting. And you realize that actually milk is a lot like paint, you know. So you go, paint is boring, the Mona Lisa is interesting, right? It's how you use it. So that truism become— became the basis of the brand, is to go, okay, actually boring— it'd be a sort of a funny play, you know.

Kelvin Soh:
And I think the convenience of using and thinking of and coming up with a name that no one in their right minds would ever choose is that boringmilk.com was available and the Instagram handle was available and registering the business wasn't a problem. You know, it just was not— it was a concept that no one else wanted. In fact, Morgan's initial response from people around her, it was met with skepticism or ridicule or whatever. So she stopped telling people about it and we just launched into the market. But the people that were closest to her really loved it. And so she, she knew that it was really good and she loved it immediately. So to her credit, I think that, uh, she really backed an idea, uh, our, our idea, and, and loved it straight away and just sort of stayed, stayed with it, you know, to, to push, push it forward. When I think another founder or another client in that same situation might have, might have just, um, struck it off, you know.

Kelvin Soh:
And so, and over the years, you know, I think that, um, just building that boring world, you know, You know, like choosing a color that was very unique, you know, all these different copy lines that were written that I've written over the years, for example, and kept building on. And they recently released their follow-up product, which is like a protein, you know, protein drink, protein and fiber oat drink. And so that's basically the new, the first new product addition since their launch, you know, 5 years ago. But we, you know, but we came up with that name as well and wrote stories. So we have an ongoing relationship with them. as and when we need it, not dissimilar to the clients we've had over the years. And yeah, so I think that it continues to grow from strength to strength. And yeah, so it's good to see, it's interesting to see where they go next as they push into international markets.

Paul Spain:
Now I'm keen to hear about Picky Juices, which I understand is connected with Boring. Can you walk us through how that fits together? They had an existing brand before it became Picky Juices, but there was a very strong uplift after that branding change. So maybe you can walk us through that.

Kelvin Soh:
Yeah, so Apollo Foods is the parent company of both Boring Apple Press and now Picky Juices. And they had actually acquired Boring Um, right at the start, you know. So Morgan became a part of, part of their team really, really early. And I think through the process, they were able to compare in some ways the performance of both brands in market, like Apple Press and Boring. And anecdotally, uh, the CEO Sally had noticed that their sales team didn't want to wear like Apple Press branded t-shirts. Or, you know, as silly as that is as an indicator or sign, it is actually kind of notable, you know, when people kind of like, I would prefer to wear the boring t-shirt. So essentially that sort of reputational or that perceptual bias of going, I like that more than that, you know. And so she realized that, okay, we should really consider rebranding the Apple Press.

Kelvin Soh:
And it was already in these Asian markets, et cetera. And through, you know, Through a long process of convincing all the stakeholders, and I won't bore you with all those details, they agreed to change it. And so we named them Picky because we had noticed, again, going back to that modality of working from the truth or truths as we discover them, we noticed that with Apple Press, they were doing something really unusual in the market. They were releasing juices based on specific like apple varietals. So you had like Granny Smith apple juice or you had Envy apple juice or Jazz apple juice. And no one kind of does that. People just go, it's apple juice. And so they're like, they loved apples, they were obsessed with apples.

Kelvin Soh:
And so being called the Apple Press made sense to a point. But then they were also expanding to include non-apple juices and smoothies and different offerings and thinking about functional drinks, as they recently released a, like, a hydration drink. So they were really thinking more, uh, more as a beverage company than a purely apple juice focused company. And so, but, but having seen the way they think and operate in terms of how considered they are in terms of their business and how it's run, etc., and the sort of, you know, the sort of geeky details of apple varietal juices. We're like, you know, we were like, we can call them picky 'cause you are very picky and we can use that as a positive instead of a negative, being picky, being selective, being discerning. And then of course, you know, there's the sort of easy double entendre of thinking of picking fruit, right? Hand-picked fruit. And so, And so that made a lot of sense. And so the funny thing, of course, that when you, uh, when you realize that Apollo has 2 main brands and one's called Boring and one's called Picky, it's like, I realize that maybe we do lean a bit towards like negative naming, you know, as a way of like, um, maybe creating, I don't know, creating tension or interest.

Kelvin Soh:
But yeah, since that rebrand, they have seen, um, like 34% growth in sales. Um, they've entered new markets that they, uh, that they couldn't before. Apparently this is all just what I understand from reading, um, this, you know, interviews that they've given in various publications like the NBR. And now we're cutting and pasting them into, you know, our sort of, um, our sort of like testimonials kind of collection or whatever. They go, oh, it's great, that's a good— it's great to have a before and after comparison for what the business is doing before and and how it's doing now. So, so they're very positive. Um, you know, the, the people that work at Apollo, some of their kids are much more engaged with the brand now. So now there's a bit more like, hey, we're happy to wear the Picky brand on t-shirts as well as Boring brand, or both, you know, on the cars.

Kelvin Soh:
So I think that for them, they were really interested to see with the success, and I guess in the sort of love for Boring as a brand, whether or not they could have another brand for their juices that worked on the same basis. And the good news is that they now, they have 2 brands that people love. In some ways, maybe they feel like the juice market, which is a much maybe bigger market than oat milk, could even be a much bigger opportunity. So that maybe over time, Picky's gonna be a much bigger brand than Boring, even though it's only been in market for like a year or a year and a bit.

Paul Spain:
Now I wanna pivot across to, Looking at your business, looking at Day Month Year and the sale of the business, can you zoom in on still acquiring Day Month Year and how you determined that was something that you actually wanted to do and to be a part of?

Kelvin Soh:
Um, actually, yes, still acquired De Manthia in its entirety about 4 years ago and still is a family office, um, owned by the Fukutaka family who moved to New Zealand about maybe 10, 10 or 15 years ago. And, and what we loved about them is like the, the family legacy in Japan and the way they think about creating long-term value. And so I think that the potential was to be part of something much greater than what I could ever imagine running a creative agency or creative studio in New Zealand. And so I jumped at the chance of that. I also became their creative director for a time, and I'm now kind of more like a creative advisor. But we actually recently got acquired by a different group called Paragon Group, a newer group. And so within Still, we realized that we actually had a lot in common with them in terms of the culture and nonprofit parts of the family office, but less so with some of their acquired businesses. So they also owned businesses like Consult Recruitment or King's Partners.

Kelvin Soh:
And while I was kind of loosely involved in—

Paul Spain:
Sorry, consult equipment recruitment or what? And what?

Kelvin Soh:
King's Plant Barn, consult recruitment, Humphreys Landscaping. So very different kinds of businesses, but they also own World of Wearable Art. And for a time, they also owned Metro Magazine, which another, another, um, business that I was involved with. Um, and so I was— so we, we had a lot in common with their kind of culture, nonprofit, new initiatives like Pararewa, which is a project that is all about creating 1,000 benches over 1,000 years, which is probably a conversation in of itself. There's another project called Vessel, which is to do with these beautiful one-off kind of architectural builds in nature that sits at the intersection of architecture, sculpture, hospitality, and an experience in nature, like a wellness kind of thing as well. And so those things made sense, but then we didn't have much to contribute to the other kind of commercial businesses. So with the new group that we've joined, that have acquired the studio, we're much more aligned in terms of our commercial ambitions, working also in— like, we do a lot of work in America, for example, America and Australia. And so they're also interested in those markets, but then we continue to maintain our links to Still.

Kelvin Soh:
I'm still on the board of like Paredes Wa, for example, and still involved in culture projects as and when they arise. And so, and we also did like the Still branding and their website. So I think that we still have a, a great relationship with them, but then realizing that we actually are more aligned with this new group from a commercial standpoint. So it's still very new and it's a work in progress, and the, the transition to Paragon ownership only happened in April this year. So to be honest, we're still changing and they're still changing as a group. So it's a bit TBC, and I haven't talked about it very much because I think we're still working out how, how the structure works overall, um, as they grow as a group. But seems like, um, you know, in the, in a few months of working with them that we see much more aligned, especially when The group essentially consists of different agencies or studios, so it's all focused around service provision, you know, covering different, um, different parts of the, different parts of the, of the, of the pie, so to speak, you know. So technology, web, we're doing brand communications, and soon I think also marketing or, you know, other.

Kelvin Soh:
So there's a bunch of like related, interrelated services that would be useful for working with either like, you know, a new startup, like a new beverage startup, and we can think about it from multiple angles and provide different points of value. Or even an acquisition for a product business, a service business. So it's also looking at different revenue models in future. So yeah, so it's still very early days and we're still working it out. But what's great about Still is I think that that question of how can we create longer, longer-term value, and whether that's through brand and business or through culture, you know, changing, uh, you know, changing the way we see things, see ourselves, etc. So I mean, I'm personally very interested in education and how education can create that compound value. So I've been loosely involved, you know, like I've, you know, been friends with obviously people involved in Creative New Zealand, even funding bodies. And then I'm thinking about, I guess, longer-term infrastructure.

Kelvin Soh:
You know, how can I contribute to, um, like the communities that I'm part of, the art institutions, the cultural institutions, the next generation of creative artists, designers, photographers, image makers, etc.? You know, um, in this sort of— there's again the existential threat of what AI means for the future of the creative community. So I'm kind of in those conversations and seeing what I can do as a member, as an active member of those communities. And I guess education for me is one of those ones I feel like can add immediate value. You know, if I can, you know, inspire or teach, or, you know, as I did at Auckland University when I taught there in the art school, it's something that I like to return to in some way, shape, or form. You know, maybe, yeah, maybe online, maybe through podcasts, who knows?

Paul Spain:
So your journey with Day Month Year going through a sale and then a second change of ownership, what lessons and advice does that give you that you can share with others who are maybe looking at similar types of journeys?

Kelvin Soh:
I think it's very, it's very unusual for agencies to be acquired. I feel like it's a, it's a rarity, you know. I think that— I feel like a lot of my friends who own agencies, I feel like when they're, when they're done, they might sort of either— there's a succession plan where it's sold to members of staff that carry, carry the flame forward, carry the torch, But it's unusual to have a kind of a group acquisition. And in some ways, like, I think that what are the learnings? I feel like the strategy and alignment is so important. You know, I feel like I certainly felt it when we weren't so aligned strategically and with the sort of wider group. And so, I think that that clarity and, and I think in some ways being aligned philosophically, because I think it's, it's easy to agree on some things. So just to say, you know, okay, we agree that the group needs to be profitable, everyone nods and says yes. But then, then do we agree on how that profit is to be achieved? You know, do we agree on the time frame? You know, do we agree on the, um, the sort of philosophy? Like, you look at— if you look at, for example, the way Amazon does business or that, you know, for a while they lost a lot of money and then they became very profitable, but then also do it at the expense of in some ways destroying a lot of things on the way, you know, in the pathway to profit.

Kelvin Soh:
So you go, you can look at it through different lenses to go, they're a highly successful company, etc., etc. And you can also look at it from a different lens in terms of, you know, the downside of a business like Amazon existing in the world, etc. And so like, I think that obviously, you know, there are no Amazons in New Zealand that I know of, but like, I think that in terms of— I don't think, I don't think that you would ever know. It's a bit like, you know, I feel like being acquired and then joining a new organisation is a bit like, uh, in some ways marrying someone they only just met, you know. So you have some sense of, I think we're into the same things, I think we believe the same things, but you never really know. until you're quite deep in a relationship. Because unlike marriage, you haven't dated them for a long time. Like, in— and so when a business expresses interest in acquiring, make an acquisition, like, it's a, it's a short kind of dating/DD process, you know.

Kelvin Soh:
And they go, I think, I think we want to do this together. But you don't know until you're in there, you know, until you're faced with maybe, um, uh, decisions, uh, that are mutually exclusive to go, do we want to go this way or that way? It's when you actually kind of know like where they stand with some things, you know. I guess, you know, in some ways, you know, where are we still aligned when you're dealing with moments of triumph or moments of disaster, you know. It's like, and I think that, yeah, and where do we sit with that, you know. So I think that we're still working it out. I don't know whether I have any, I mean, I might have, you know, some things that I've learned that I could share with other creative agency or studio owners who are thinking about acquisitions. But because they're so rare, like, and everyone's— and I think every agency or studio that's been acquired, it's so unique to their story, their industry, and you feel that because there's so few.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, there's not a cookie-cutter answer.

Kelvin Soh:
It's not really a cookie-cutter answer.

Paul Spain:
But yeah, yeah.

Kelvin Soh:
Um, but also, you know, as an owner, you really— you relinquish some level of control, you know, uh, in terms of what constitutes success for our agency, right? You know, so what is an acceptable amount of profit? What— you know, when I was running it, and I gave a lot of time and value to nonprofit causes, and we were never really as profitable as we could have been when I owned it because I was always so heavily involved in, like I mentioned before, the creative industry, or, you know, doing stuff for the Breast Cancer Foundation, which is a cause that, like, you know has, uh, you know, has direct impact on like my family, etc., with my mum and my aunties and that. And so like, you know, I was able to choose to just give value, you know, or take a punt on a new entrepreneur and go, okay, they don't quite have the funds, but how do I help grow with them, you know, like, and to sort of over time, you know, they kind of— their budgets start to resemble what we're normally used to in terms of clients. But sometimes we take a punt, sometimes I'm co-investing. I also played around with different revenue models where, like with Stolen Rum, I jumped on board as a minority owner when my contributions started to exceed the role of just providing brand design or packaging design. When I started to actually impact the strategy and the story and the point where I renamed it and reset the foundations of that brand, it's like, I was like, well, maybe I should become a co-owner. And they agreed and sort of like gave me a little bit of equity in the business. And so, yeah, so these are things that I think I'm still learning. I'm still, I feel like a creative at heart in a way that's having, that's a creative that's running business, you know, as opposed to a business person that's running creative, you know.

Kelvin Soh:
So I think that having great people around me, and I've had a lot of great people in my team over the years that have come and gone, and they've helped to shape Dayman Theatre as it's evolved over, you know, over what, 16 years or however long, you know. I think it started in 2010. So yeah, so I think that it's still a learning— I'm still learning, I feel, and I'm still optimistic and idealistic, which is good. Like, I'm not jaded yet, you know. So, um, yeah, I'm still as idealistic as ever.

Paul Spain:
Yeah. Now I'm, I'm keen to sort of hear a little bit of the, the journey from, you know, you, you studied at, uh, at what was AIT at the time. And you didn't go out and take a job at an advertising agency or a creative agency. You really did, you know, you've done your own thing throughout your working life. Maybe you can walk us through how that evolved and, you know, You know, your, the earlier, you know, business that you were, that you co-founded, I believe, The Wilderness, and then onto Day Month Year. What are the threads and how does that fit together? And, you know, what temptations have you had to go and, you know, take the easy path and just, you know, take a job somewhere else rather than doing your own thing?

Kelvin Soh:
I've never— when— yeah, so after, after graduating, I think I was really focused on being an illustrator, and I think that I was actually on the dole for like 2 years. And so because I just couldn't get a job, right? And I was open to it, but because I was really into doing illustration at the time, I was not interested in design, I was not interested in any of the stuff that— anything that I'm doing now. And, you know, I did occasional freelance, like I did, I remember illustrating a 4-pack for V drinks, you know, for this design studio. And I would do commissions like that, but I was doing illustration. And I think that over the years of self-employment and like when I sold my agency 4 years ago, I joked that that was the first time I filled in a full-time employment contract, which is true. So it's taken a few decades to get a real job, as I say. Okay. But I think that I was always interested in authorship.

Kelvin Soh:
So I was always interested in making something and authoring something. And that required, for me at least, a belief that I needed to control it myself. You know, I didn't want to— I think that if someone came along and maybe there was an agency or a studio that was exactly what I wanted to be or do, I think I would've happily like, you know, just gone, can I work for you? But 'cause I think I didn't see, I didn't see myself in these agencies in New Zealand, so I'll just make my own thing, you know. And it's not like I was opposed to being, uh, being a full-time salaried employee. It's just I didn't find one that I liked. And so what made sense was just in some ways going— growing organically from project to project, starting with illustration, and then that evolved to the music industry or doing storyboards for the film industry. And then formulating in some ways, uh, the philosophy, uh, that we, that we use today, you know, thinking about having a fan-first attitude to brand building or favoring community and belonging for how we do things. And they all kind of grew out of that period.

Kelvin Soh:
And so the, the process of, um, being self-employed— and yes, I had, I also had a partnership called The Wilderness for a while— I think it was still part of the same meandering journey, even though I think different business, um, different business brands kind of exist at different times. I think the philosophy was always the same. And, um, and maybe I, I, I still think about, um, you know, in some ways my younger self. I think of like an environment that my younger self would enjoy working for, you know, or, or to be the kind of creative director that my younger self would enjoy working with, you know. And so Yeah, so I think that's been a journey. I'm not sure if that answers the question.

Paul Spain:
That's good. One aspect I'm curious about, and over years I've wondered about it, and I think listeners would be curious too. Certainly in the past, folks that Googled you, there wasn't necessarily a whole lot to find. Oh, there's the kelvinsow.com website that's got all of the ins and outs of Kelvin's journey. Even with Day Month Year, I recall, well, let's bring up Kelvin's website because I want to show somebody some of Kelvin's work. And yeah, at times it was a blank or virtually a blank page. So you've taken quite a different approach to your your own promotion, almost kind of hiding your work and keeping it so it is a little bit like that secret nightclub. Oh, do you know that place? You have to go there and then it's down the stairs and it's such and such.

Paul Spain:
But if you don't know about it, then you don't know about it. And it's kind of, to me, felt your brand has been a little bit that way. It hasn't been something where there's billboards up and there's a lot of a lot of visibility, but you've been, you know, you've come to be known, um, you know, through, through, through reputation and yeah, not, not much through, um, yeah, anything other than, other than your own work.

Kelvin Soh:
Yeah, it's, it's probably, it's probably more a flaw than a strength maybe, but you know, it's, I guess I've never been I've never been that interested in promoting myself, um, in part because the— it's a bit like this, right? And I don't, I don't know this is a helpful mindset to have. I'm sort of changing it now, but which is why I'm doing things like podcasts and being a bit more visible, is that I used to believe— I still do it to a large degree— that my job when I'm creating a brand and I'm working especially with a founder It's a bit like being Obama's speechwriter. And so you don't want to— you, for the romance to work, you want to feel like, even though in your mind you know it's impossible, that the founders come up with everything and that they're a genius and they're amazing at branding and they're amazing at product and amazing at everything. And so you want to kind of almost like— there's a romance around the founder that works for a founder-led business. And if I were to distract and take the limelight by going, hey, but hey, I came up with all that stuff, you know, it distracts in the way that if you started to go, hey, I'm Obama's speechwriter, after he's delivered a rousing, you know, a rousing speech for millions of people, the day after you're like, yeah, so I'm Obama's speechwriter, right? So if you need to engage my services, you can, you know, like kind of kills the buzz a bit. So for a long time, I let the founders have the limelight, and I— and also because I'm not that motivated to promote myself. And so I'm much more motivated by other things like education. So I love, you know, if I'm speaking at conferences, whatever, I feel like I'm giving you something.

Kelvin Soh:
I'm motivated by community, by growth, by camaraderie, by sharing knowledge. Um, and, and I'm motivated by, you know, if I'm motivated to grow the business, it's because I want to create better opportunities for my team or to perhaps explore different ventures. So again, it's all kind of forward-facing and productive reasoning as opposed to like my ego needs to be known for certain things. So I would see it as like, you know, maybe at times I, I should have done more, you know. And we are doing a little bit more in like there are a few images on Instagram now than nothing. Um, maybe 6 months ago there literally was nothing, and we've never had any really images on Instagram. We've— I've written a few essays that I'm really proud of, proud of, uh, for LinkedIn, for example. Again, knowledge sharing is much more exciting to me than promotion.

Kelvin Soh:
So if I trick myself, you know, into doing it, then maybe I might do some things that would be beneficial for our business from a marketing standpoint. But yeah, we certainly— I certainly didn't— I'm not trying to hide per se, although I did believe that, um, I did and still do to a point that I think that the attention that given to the founders of these businesses. Um, for, for a founder-led strategy to work, you know, it kind of has to be very focused on them, you know. So I think that people do find us. I mean, Morgan, you know, the founder of Boring Mill, has recommended us a lot, and we've gotten a lot of work from her recommendation. So I think it's one of those things that we're whispered, you know, like that good plumber, you know, like to go, actually, yeah, Calvin's good at brand plumbing, so you should give him a call.

Paul Spain:
Yeah.

Kelvin Soh:
And so A lot of our work has come organically for that reason. So at any given moment, one of our brands is sort of, is very much in the limelight. So if that was 42 Below, then 42 Below helped to get us Charlie's Juice or Stolen Rum, and that in turn got us Boring Milk. So there's a sort of, in some ways, an organic kind of passing of knowledge or information that allows us to work with the new startup, that is similar to the old startup but in a different category. And so, but I think I'm trying to be better at it. So I think that as long as I think of it more like knowledge sharing, I think I'm okay, yeah. So I do have calvinsoh.com, but yeah, in typical, in true to form, there's nothing there apart from like maybe my contact details. It hasn't been updated forever, but yeah, I need to do something about it.

Paul Spain:
Now, when I look at your journey, I've always thought of you as being very strategic. How have you opened that door with your clients to be able to really have the right to maybe push them in areas where you wouldn't expect some— a branding person to necessarily go to usually. Um, how has that kind of come about for, for you to have those, those conversations that are, you know, more forward-looking, brand futurist sort of, sort of approach?

Kelvin Soh:
I think that my, my interest in strategy and how I use strategy stems from the conditions of working with founders without that much capital to begin with. So it's a kind of a boring reason in a way, but the need for creativity and improvisation, you know, stems all the way back to working with 42 Below. And in some ways, being strategic simply means looking at the conditions with really clear— with really— with clear minds and eyes to go, What are we trying to achieve and what resource do we have to achieve it and how do we do that? So you're trying to solve a puzzle. And so that's just strategy 101 in a way. And you could think of, I like to think of strategy closer to like a board game or chess, to go, okay, so I've got, I'm starting this game with a quarter of the pieces that you've got, how do I not lose this game? And so you go, okay, well, I need to play in a different way to, to how other people play, right? And so, uh, and that's pretty invigorating for a creative person because you go, oh, this is, this is a creative challenge, you know. This is, this is not going to work if I don't figure out an answer to this question. And so strategy as a form of necessity was kind of how it began. But then it became also really obvious when I started to, uh, you know, build brands through the lens of like just common sense, you know, is to go, okay, if If you and I are trying to buy a birthday present for a friend, a mutual friend, and you've just like spent $100 on a bottle of wine, and I decided to like, because I know them really well and I know that they, you know, used to be really into Pokémon when they were 10, and then I just buy them like a secondhand card for $10.

Kelvin Soh:
I might actually get a better reaction than your $100 bottle of wine, right? And so that, as an analogy, is basically what I've been doing with startups for 25 years. How can I create a stronger emotional connection between my client and their customer, often for a tenth of the cost that their competitors are? And the And the unlock for that to happen is an intimate and deeper knowledge of their customer in terms of what the customer cares about, what they need, and what needs are currently not being served by the competition within that category. And some of those needs aren't necessarily pragmatic. They might be emotional needs, it might be symbolic, might be aesthetic needs. It might just be a design thing. It might just be a color thing. In some cases, you know, it's just that, but sometimes the needs are more like, you know, philosophical, that the business has a mission that the competitors don't have, the mission that the business has a philosophy that the competitors don't have. And so that again is, is just strategy, uh, as a, as a means of creating better impact.

Kelvin Soh:
So I think that I became much more interested in strategy when I was just really focused on outcomes, right? So in the first instance, I remember it all started when I just wanted to do better design. I remember thinking, how can I make better design for my clients? And I go, actually, if I have— if I'm better at art direction and creative direction, that makes for better design. And then I realize, actually, if I have better strategy, it makes for better art direction, it makes for better design. And then I go— kept going upstream, right? So if I became better at storytelling and actually, you know, presenting the work and, you know, and, and, and combine that with strategy and creative direction, it makes for better design. It kept swimming upstream to the point where, you know, I'm up to like, you know, if I name the business and set a premise that would be easier to do great design with later on, maybe that makes better design. And now, and then to the point where I'm a co-owner and I'm I'm thinking if I can help my clients fundraise, which is insane, you know, to get investors— if the brand is so interesting and compelling that it makes their job easier to get investors on board, then I can make better design. So I'm wandering so far out of lane but completely focused on impact, completely focused on the, the effects, the positive effect that I could have on my client and their business. You know, and helping them, um, you know, create investor, investor decks, and me learning a lot about commercial strategy in the process, understanding where, you know, where the work that we did fits into the wider commercial ecosystem.

Kelvin Soh:
You know, like, I've grown a lot in that regard. And so that again is, it's not just strategy, it's like multiple strategies and how they play together. You know, how does the creative strategy, brand strategy play with Product strategy, capital strategy, you name it, right? There's multiple strategies happening at the same time. So the interrelationship, I think, you know, and that puzzle to solve, and the fact that it's a dynamic puzzle that changes all the time, you know, you don't just solve it one day and it's, and it's, and it's, you know, it's the same forever. It's like the variables change. So that, that led me to create my strategic framework that I've been working on for 15 years, which I call the Hub Framework. And it really allows me to have that conversation with our clients in almost like a quasi-board game fashion, to make visible the interrelated, um, factors and conditions that motivate the decisions that we make when it comes to brand and storytelling. So knowing that your competitors have 10 times more budget, or knowing that that mission that you say is really important to you is the same mission that everyone in the category talks about, you have an understanding of what is special and what isn't, you know, and understand— and understanding to, to, to guide our clients to then maybe pursue a different way of thinking about their mission or values, or maybe even pivoting to something else entirely, you know.

Kelvin Soh:
And so that strategic framework is, yeah, just like this big board game that I get them to play. And then you do it every year. You do it— in fact, you do it multiple times a year in order to understand the stakes, right? Because, you know, when, when, when a new challenger enters, enters your market, or when my client is that challenger, it upsets sort of the, the balance, you know, upsets the balance of that particular market in terms of positioning and players. So if you come in and you've taken a different position, you're the only one that's made in New Zealand, and, you know, you look different, and maybe it's cooler or more interesting, it upsets, you know. And you see this in the sales data. When I see the data of, of our clients, our clients entering markets, and then we're— then you can see the disruption from a sales perspective you know that's having an effect, you know, and then if another— and if as competitions change or when their cost of goods at the moment has risen due to like, you know, either tariffs or wars, etc., that upsets different variables in terms of how you continue to do what you do but with fewer resources than you had like a year ago or 2 years ago, you know, that this— it's such a dynamic thing, which is why I think my relationship and our relationship with our clients evolve and change over a period of time, and it's not quite the same. It's never a straight line, you know. And even if you have like a supposed happy ending of like a crystallized measure of value in a— in an exit, like, it was a meandering road to get there, you know.

Kelvin Soh:
And so it's very, very, um, very relational, very collaborative. And that's very, um, It's very fun, right? I love, I love those types of, um, relationships. It's different from a kind of a, a service provision relationship where you go, I need a campaign, can you make it? Here's a campaign. Cool. Publish, move on. Or they come back for another campaign. But when you are in the engine room and you are actually contributing to the identification of opportunities as opposed to just executing things, is to go, hey, have you thought about this? Or hey, this is really interesting, it makes for a much more invigorating relationship. And so it feels like I'm contributing actual value.

Kelvin Soh:
So yeah, so I do like those relationships. And so even though I think that working with founders at the beginning of their journey is the worst possible commercial decision because they have the least amount of capital, but we can have the greatest amount of impact because you're creating the kind of foundations that Boring Milk has or Stolen Rum has, it makes, you know, year 5 way easier, you know, when you have those foundations. So yeah, so I haven't figured that out yet, you know, much like the, uh, the lack of self-promotion and maybe the, the sort of commercial model around working with founders doesn't always make commercial sense, even though I like it. So it might have to be like a— I might have to set up a nonprofit to, to like, you know, to support the next, you know, maybe have like a a program or a platform, you know, like a package or something to go, this is your accelerator package, and we give it to 3 founders every year or something like that. I don't know. So I've got to figure that out.

Paul Spain:
Now AI really is impacting just about You know, everything when it comes to work and business. How are you looking at AI right now?

Kelvin Soh:
I guess in some ways we're always playing around with new technology as it relates to our business, you know? And I think with this, of course, you know, it's been such a game changer. And I think that earlier on, maybe 2 or 3 years ago, it felt like it wasn't clear, you know, who the winners were going to be and what you would spend your time using, right? You know, if you recall, it wasn't that long ago that Google was the laughingstock, you know, messing up presentations on stage and people weren't even considering— and then, you know, everyone would seem like, oh, Microsoft's going to really make a play here, right? So in some ways, the tide shifts so quickly. And for us, I think we were, we were playing around with, um, different technology, different platforms, etc. And the, the thing, the thing that I'm personally excited by, and this is obviously part of the Pro AI rhetoric amongst people who are really into it is obviously what it means to democratize certain modes of production, to, to enable, uh, someone in their spare room, uh, to make a Hollywood-level film at a fraction of the cost, right? So you go, therefore, people who perhaps would never have gotten the chance to tell their stories will get a chance, you know. And with that, what does that mean for a broader representation? You know, so there could be certain people groups on the planet and maybe certain languages that just wouldn't be commercially popular because it's not in a major language in the world. It doesn't, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't make their films in those languages or whatever, right? So that, or even the ability to translate to multiple languages seamlessly with, with, you know, advanced sort of dubbing techniques, etc. So I think the democratisation of tools and access obviously is appealing for someone who's time who are like myself, where I could perhaps, you know, um, find time to make short films or to kind of amplify the available time that I've got. So that I think is really positive.

Kelvin Soh:
I think the downside, of course, or, or I think that where you see the ripple effects, unwanted ripple effects for the creative industry, is when you have, uh, clients making things themselves. Some of our clients, I think, clearly use Claude for their feedback. So they use Claude like an external consultant, you know. And so I think that the the, uh, in some ways the lack of care and how these are used might have disastrous kind of effects in future, I guess, you know, because they're using AI to make, I think, quite key decisions, you know, which I think, you know, you can maybe, you know, you can maybe look at, look at what the LLMs think, but I think if you're using it to write and even think on your behalf, I think that's quite dangerous. So I don't think that we're different in, in any shape or regard. We've done campaigns where we've used AI technology to in some ways interrogate the technology as well. So I think like all of us, maybe we're adopting a kind of a watch this space kind of stance. In the meantime, we're trying to stay as up to date as possible and to be ready in some ways, you know, like without knowing what's going to happen next.

Kelvin Soh:
So yeah, but I think that some of the efficiencies that we've seen in terms of the end-to-end workflow, I mean, you know, I think we're all happy Hopefully we're happy to be doing less of the things that are really laborious and more of the things that I think that give us lots of joy. So can we do that and obviously still pay the bills, et cetera? Maybe that remains to be seen.

Paul Spain:
Excellent. Thank you. That's insightful. As we come into close, I'm keen to hear from you your top tips. and insights for business leaders on brand identity?

Kelvin Soh:
2 things come to mind straight away. The first thing is that it's something that I've become quite attached to of late, and I've started to talk about it quite a lot more, which is to foster a sense of belonging. And it's unusual to think about how a brand might contribute to a sense of belonging, but I do believe that going back, uh, to all the different businesses that we work, we work with and all the successful exits that's been reported about in the newspapers, etc., I feel like a lot of that has to do with what I now call, um, the sense of belonging that's, that's created through those brands in the marketplaces. So, and how I describe that is a combination of like, um, identity as it relates to culture, as it relates to community And how and how that's also powered with creativity. So if you take a brand like 42 Below, if you take a brand like Stolen Rum or Boring Oat Milk, etc., I do think that that sense of seeing yourself in that brand and in that business obviously endears yourself to what they're trying to do. But then in that, you know how it how we're able to support that through you know visual codes and languages and certain phrases. So enables I think. The, the audience of these companies, of these brands, to essentially exchange with each other, you know, so that you're giving people the tools to go, hey, I'm a big fan of Boring Oat Milk and I'm wearing the t-shirt, you know, what about you? Or things like that, you know, to put it simply, right? So I feel like creating belonging for businesses, I feel like that's, that's like a kind of a quasi-cheat code, you know, because if you can create that depth of meaning and, and emotional connection in theory, you know, you wouldn't have to keep advertising and essentially bribing them to buy your product every time you go on sale, if you know what I mean.

Kelvin Soh:
So I feel like it's a very authentic, very meaningful, and thus much more sustainable way of growing your audience and your business. And I think that brand— I see brand as being a really big part of that. And the other thing that I, I think— I, I don't know if it's a tip, but that I think is really important is that so much of, I think, what is, uh, what makes for effective brand building is strategic. But the problem with strategy is that it, you know, you go through this process, you go through a very expensive process, and it results in that wonderful internal clarity that lives as a, I don't know, a 1,000-page document or somewhere on your machine or on your shelves. And you go, how does that manifest on a day-to-day for it to be useful? You know, and I think that unless you can make strategy manifest every day, it's not really going to make much of a difference. You know, so you go, yeah, I've got this great head knowledge about my business, But then it's like, if I can't actually make, you know, can't actually take that and execute it, and especially when that— when you know internally that that's the thing that makes you different, especially in a marketplace, then you go, what's the point, right? And so in order to, um, make strategy simpler, what I've done is I've actually written something that just takes it down to like 5 super basic points that maybe if you can hold this in your head, or if your team can hold this and have this as top of mind, maybe they can have a much greater effect on the performance of your business. So I call it Brand on Hand or Brand on One Hand. And how it works is that I've written 5 prompts based entirely on the 5 fingers of your left hand.

Kelvin Soh:
So unless you're missing a left hand, this should be very easy for you to

Paul Spain:
look. And when you talk about prompts, you're not talking about AI prompts here. You're talking about— Human reminders.

Kelvin Soh:
That's right. These are prompts in— this is like old-fashioned prompts, Paul, when they're just reminders and, and in some ways triggers of like, of, of, you know, stuff that we can lock away in our minds that you go, oh, this is a— these prompts, yes, very much not AI prompts. Um, although I haven't tried to see what AI would do with these prompts. Maybe, maybe it would be very helpful. So I'll run you through very quickly, um, what they are, and maybe it would be useful for your listeners, you know, to, to play with them and see what they think. So, um, it's called, it's called Brand on Hand. So, um, so starting with, uh, the fingers of your left hand, so you've got, you've got the thumb. So the thumb, of course, thanks to Facebook, is the universal symbol of, of, of likes and loves.

Kelvin Soh:
And the challenge here is for a business to discover like what it is that they like and love and they're, then they are for, and how does that get communicated to their customers, right? So it could be something very simple, like you could be a pizzeria and going, the owner, you know, owner's dad loves football. And then you're like, well, why don't we just start putting football stuff around the restaurant, right? So you go in there, it immediately has a different kind of charm, and it kind of endears you to that. And you go, oh, it's a family business, they're obsessed about football, and they might even have screenings there on a Saturday or whatever, right? So you go, that immediately makes it a much more interesting restaurant than it would be otherwise. For a business that's like, you know, like a soft drink, etc., so much of how businesses use um, social media or content is we're so focused on the sale that we haven't paused to go, well, these, these things are really important to me. You know, you might have put so much into the making of that product where you've gone, you know, you really wanted to keep it natural and you've spent more time on it for that reason to go, why don't you spend time talking about that stuff, right? So basically, what do you like? What are you into? That's your— that's, that's the thumb. Um, of course, when you start to really clarify and define what you're really into you immediately start to realize the stuff that you're really not into, right? So by, by being pro-natural, clearly you're anti-artificial sweeteners and artificial whatevers, right? So by default, in defining what you like, you're also defining what you don't like, AKA your middle finger and what you, what you hold up your middle finger to towards, right? And so you go, who's your enemy? For some businesses, it's like, our enemy is, is Big Pharma, because that's why we're the independent business that gives access to affordable drugs or whatever, whatever, right? So, you know, some businesses define themselves in that kind of challenger position in relation to like a stated enemy, right? So that's the middle finger bit. But that could also be towards something that you, you don't want in your business. You know, we, we don't want, you know, say plastic packaging.

Kelvin Soh:
You go, okay, well, we stand against plastic packaging, so maybe we should talk about that and explain to our customers why we use what we use in our, in our business. Related, related to that, obviously standing right next to the middle finger is your ring finger. And unsurprisingly, that's about your long-term commitments. It is, uh, the stuff that you hold very, very dear. Even if your business, uh, you know, even if you are no longer running a business in a year or two, you might still hold these values to be there. Maybe it's about we care about people, maybe it's we care about environment. You know, what is it that you hold dear that is your why? And maybe within the— within a singular business, maybe there is a deeper why to go This business is all about providing access to affordable healthcare or whatever, whatever. So that's a kind of non-negotiable.

Kelvin Soh:
Your pinky finger is of course associated with pinky promises. So what are you promising to do? What are the expectations that you're creating with your customers in your business that people will rightfully come to you for? And that in turn starts to build your brand, right? So they go, hey, that business there, they're the sort of always natural never synthetic, you know, all that kind of stuff. Or you might be an always-on-time delivery for a particular food, or, you know, whatever the sort of promises are. And these can change over time. So it's not quite like the ring finger, which is we'll never change these, this is super important. Pinky finger, for this season or this or today or this year, this is what we promise to do, right? So it's like a New Year's resolution. And last but not least, the index finger, and it's about pointing, and it's about evidence. So in some ways, all the other 4 fingers— you've got what you like, what you dislike, what you, what you're wedded to, and what your promises are— and then the index finger goes, well, cool, what do you point— what can you point to in, in your marketing, in your business, in your life that testifies to those other 4 attributes or values or principles? So if you go, yeah, I really care about people, you go, okay, What part of your social media messaging indicates that you care about people? Nothing.

Kelvin Soh:
Or what, you know, how about the way you, you know, the way you write the policies within your business, et cetera? Like if you say you're into something, how does that show up truthfully in your business? And then how does it also show up in how you talk about your business or how you hold yourself? So yeah, so that's very simple. That's great. 5 fingers, or I call it kind of brand on hand or brand on one hand, literally, you can take your brand strategy with you everywhere, and hopefully that's useful for, uh, for businesses whether big or small.

Paul Spain:
Excellent. That's, that's really helpful, Kelvin. I really appreciated that. Uh, listeners might be interested in seeing that in a visual form, uh, so, you know, for those that are interested, do make sure you're signed up for our New Zealand Business Podcast newsletter, which you can get to from the, from the newzealandbusinesspodcast.com website. And that's the sort of collateral that we're going to start you know, including through from, from podcasts for, for listeners. So they get something to augment what they've, what, what they've listened into. So that's excellent. Well, thank you very much, Kelvin.

Paul Spain:
It's been fantastic to have you here on the show today.

Kelvin Soh:
Thanks, Paul. Appreciate it.

Paul Spain:
And thank you for listening in. I hope you really enjoyed this conversation with Kelvin Soh. New Zealand Business Podcast is brought to you by One New Zealand alongside Gorilla Technology. making tech enablement and cybersecurity easy for mid-size and smaller firms, and by Outrun Global, remote staffing to help your local teams work smarter, not harder. Be sure to listen in to our other episodes featuring many of New Zealand's most tenacious and incredible leaders, including Brooke Roberts of Sharesies, Sir Peter Beck of Rocket Lab, Cecilia and James Robinson of My Food Bag and Tend, Sir Stephen Tyndall of The Warehouse and K1W1, and many more. And be sure to share this episode with a friend or colleague who you think will benefit from it too. Now I have a quick question. Are you confident that you're maximizing the uplift tech enablement can bring? And alongside that, minimizing cyber risks? If not, get in touch today with Gorilla Technology for a discussion about the opportunity ahead.

Paul Spain:
Well, thanks very much for listening in. This is Paul Spain signing out, and I'll catch you again on the next episode. See you then. Thanks, Paul.