Posts Tagged "patents"

Paul Spain:
Greetings and welcome. I’m your host Paul Spain, futurist and chief Executive at Guerrilla Technology. I love seeing individuals and their organizations thrive. The New Zealand Business podcast is all about this through sharing the business leadership and innovation insights of others. So whoever wishes to listen in and action, what they learn will up their game and their impact, whether that be locally, in New Zealand or on the global stage. In this episode I sit down with Christopher Boyle, co founder of Fabrum, one of Canterbury and New Zealand’s most innovative high tech companies. Christopher graduated in electrical engineering from the University of Canterbury and spent years working in power systems around the world before returning to New Zealand. In 2004, he and co founder Hugh Reynolds launched Fabrum.

Paul Spain:
What began as a two person startup has grown and to a team of nearly 100 leading the way in green hydrogen solutions from small scale liquefaction systems and composite cryogenic tanks to hydrogen refueling infrastructure for heavy transport, aviation and Mining. In 2023 the company secured $23 million in a series A funding round led by London headquartered AP Ventures along with investors from Japan, Australia and New Zealand’s own K1W1. In our conversation, Christopher shares Fabrum’s journey from a passion for engineering to becoming a global leader in cryogenic and composite technologies. He talks candidly about the challenges of innovation, surviving market shifts and the vital role of Kiwi ingenuity in engineering and building world class technology. From Christchurch, the New Zealand Business Podcast is proudly brought to you by Gorilla Technology, the information technology services provider who makes tech easy, productive and secure for mid size and smaller New Zealand organizations. If your it isn’t helping your business move forward fast Enough, then visit gorillatechnology.com and get in touch.

Paul Spain:
Welcome to the podcast. Christopher Boyle, how are you?

Christopher Boyle:
Great, thanks Paul. Thanks for the opportunity to have this chat.

Paul Spain:
It’s a real privilege to be back.

Christopher Boyle:
In Christchurch again and particularly here at Fabrum. So Fabrum is a name that’s sort of come up over sort of a period of years as being one of the standout companies here in Canterbury. I think a lot of people probably don’t know too much about the story, so maybe you could sort of walk us back to your founding days. You’ve been in business a little bit over 20 years. So how do things begin?

Christopher Boyle:
April 2004 My now business partner then we were just mates that met racing motorcycles at Canterbury University. Hugh Reynolds, a specialist in composite technologies with a mechanical engineering background. I’m a heavy current power systems electrical engineer. Both of us out of Canterbury we knew each other for a period of time, talked about business for a number of years, and then in 2004 came up with a couple of ideas and thought we should give this a go.

Christopher Boyle:
And so what were those initial ideas? What were those initial opportunities that you saw?

Christopher Boyle:
My professor from university was looking for a composite containment vessel, or dewar, for a partial core superconducting transformer. And he had approached Hugh and was trying to find someone that could actually do this piece of technology. It was something that appealed to me because obviously my power systems background, I could see where this could go to in terms of superconducting applications. And Hugh had the idea of how we could do it. So we thought, oh, well, let’s see if we can make a business out of this. There was also using composites for ultra high rotational speed centrifuges for oil and meat industries. So there was another challenge, so we started putting those two together. A little bit more to it than that as well, because the next question it asks is, why Christchurch? I was based in the North Island.

Christopher Boyle:
Hewitt stayed in Christchurch after finishing university. And he was really connected to the very deep high tech manufacturing base that’s here in Canterbury. So we wanted to leverage that. We understood that collaboration and partnerships would be necessary for where we were going. And the other piece was University of Canterbury, rich provider of talented engineering students. And in my year, the majority of my cohort left to go offshore chasing jobs. And we felt it would be advantageous for New Zealand to actually have a base where engineers could come out of varsity and without leaving town, could put their technology and innovative thinking into products that had a global impact without leaving home. Obviously, every Kiwi wants to do is oe, but being able to bed people down in terms of that early place for technology development was a key driver for what we chose to do.

Christopher Boyle:
So those motivators, along with the opportunity in that tech space, were the two bits that actually created the opportunity for Fabrum.

Christopher Boyle:
Yeah. And so your initial, you know, ideas and opportunities, how did that play out? Often the, you know, what you planned for at the beginning, it’s not necessarily a sort of a straight line from there to success.

Christopher Boyle:
No straight lines in this course. No. And we’re not sure if success sits there either yet. It’s still a plan motion. But that focus in superconductivity was we were probably ahead of the curve. New Zealand had a really strong presence in the superconducting industry globally. The government had supported it. IRL and others were leading that space globally.

Christopher Boyle:
So it was A natural place for us to play. The opportunity to move the power industry forward at speed was a key driver. There were three key things in superconductivity. One is a wire, which is a store of black science or black art. The containment vessel, which was a composite technologies we worked on. And then the provision of a cryogen, which is what pushed us down the path of making a cryocaller so you could have localized production of liquid nitrogen. So we nailed two of those, the containment vessel and the cryocaller. But the superconducting wire was a place we weren’t going.

Christopher Boyle:
And fair to say that was a limitation in those days of the acceleration of the superconducting industry. They’re on top of it now and it’s now coming back and it’s, you know, all of the areas that we thought it would go into, like superconducting aircraft motors, generators, etc. It’s now starting to happen, which is great, but it’s pretty difficult when you’re, you’re about 20 years ahead of the market.

Christopher Boyle:
Incredible. So yeah, for those that aren’t, aren’t familiar with superconductors and you know, the broader opportunity. How could you simplify that?

Christopher Boyle:
So there’s low temperature superconducting and high temperature superconducting, which is an interesting label because low temperatures at about 3 Kelvin, so 3 degrees above absolute zero, and then high temperatures at about 77 Kelvin, which is still roughly minus 220 degrees, so cold. And the reason you do that is there’s certain materials that when you take to those temperatures, they have zero resistance, which means you can use a lot less of the material and you can put more current or energy through. It has a bunch of other spin off benefits in terms of when you overload it, it quenches and creates, it becomes a choke almost. So when you’re looking at limiting fault currents in a superconducting transformer, it’s perfectly suited to that. So yeah, that’s superconductivity. Most people would have glazed over by now. So we’ll move on from that conversation. But it was a really good way for us to get deep confidence and capability in cryogenic knowledge and composite technologies.

Christopher Boyle:
Part of that journey. We went up to America, looked at the space industry, looked at what they were doing with composite technologies and said, right, that’s the quality and the level we’ve got to operate at, but we have to do it in an industrial price. So you know, that Kiwi way of how do you really dumb down the process to actually Take the cost out of it. So that was a core focus. We’ve done that. And interesting. Your question was what does that straight line look like? Well, it had a number of duck and dives and weaves in it. We picked up a bunch of IP in that superconductivity space.

Christopher Boyle:
How to use composites with helium, very small molecules. So how do you contain that with a porous structure like fiberglass? And then how do you manage heat events or pressure events with those technologies? So you know, fast forward 21 years and there’s 20 odd patents that have been put in place, a multitude of trade secrets, and we’re now probably confidently one of the world leaders in liquid hydrogen storage systems for 100% composite tanks for aviation application, which is a massive enabler for getting aircraft flying with liquid hydrogen. But on the other side of it, our cryogenic technologies now going into animal husbandry, human medical applications, remote high purity oxygen production for defense or humanitarian aid, deep research, cooling for detectors, right through to liquid hydrogen production plants, boil off gas management for LNG and hydrogen, et cetera, et cetera. So a long way from where we started with a partial core superconducting transformer for the university.

Christopher Boyle:
Yeah. So that creates lots of opportunities. What have been some of the most exciting ones over the years, you know, and I see sort of names like NASA and varying others mentioned when, when we read about you. How do those sorts of things come.

Christopher Boyle:
About the NASA one? I mean, you know, post the Christchurch earthquakes we were, we were doing some work in Japan for beam tube components out of composites, etc. And when the earthquakes happened, it was almost like the phone stopped ringing. I’m sure CNN told the world that Christchurch had fallen off the map. So it was an interesting change for us. It was actually, how do we, how do we combat this? So Hugh and I jumped on a plane and did 27 flights in a couple of weeks and really pushed it out there to a number of potential and existing customers.

Christopher Boyle:
Yes.

Christopher Boyle:
And in one of those meetings, it was actually a conference in the US where we had representative from NASA there who wandered up and said, hey, we’re thinking of doing this. Is there an application for your cryocaller? And it was a CO2 sublimation system for Mars, a Mars lander project. And so we said, oh, that’s interesting. So we came back and developed a system for them, which I think we did it in four months from concept design, build deliver, and it was successful. So that was, that was one of those moments where you go, we just got A check from NASA. So that was pretty good. Rolls Royce doing a little bit of work with them, supporting some ceramic structures within superconducting applications. Again, conferences, working with other Kiwi companies as a NZ Inc.

Christopher Boyle:
Specialist team going into superconducting conferences or cryogenic conferences around the world. That’s our real connection point. So yeah, Rolls Royce, NASA and then of course you get the likes of Shell where these really large marquees show interest and you end up doing projects with them, which is pretty exciting for a Kiwi company based in Christchurch. There’s been a bunch more. We’ve done aviation, motors, superconducting, high copper content, electrical for groups around the world. First large scale liquid hydrogen plant for a mining application. Yeah, it goes on.

Christopher Boyle:
What would you say have been the most challenging, challenging points? You know, you talked about following the earthquakes that same things dried up at that time. What would be the other, other inflection points? Because this is, it’s a long period of time that you’ve been, you’ve been in operation doing, you know, really cutting edge things. But if they’re not all firing all at once or at the right time, that creates some pretty significant challenges.

Christopher Boyle:
I’m sure over that period, some might say we’ve chased shiny objects, there’s that risk. But the way I’d rather look at it is that we’ve been very agile and we’ve shifted as the market’s moved or our capability is aligned to an emerging potential opportunity. So, you know, over that time we’ve got involved in supporting gas separation within electrolysers for gas production, hydrogen gas production. And there’s a real challenge when we have this conversation internally and it sits well with some people, but not most. A lot of people like routine and known outcomes. When you live in an innovative space and you’re committing to delivering outcomes that have never been done before, you’ve got a degree of confidence that you can get there. But it may not be the first solution. There might be a couple.

Christopher Boyle:
So that means you operate at a high stress level around what’s known, what’s not. Failure is something that’s not deemed failure. It’s called proving a concept is functional or not. So you, you have to expect that it’s not going to, you’re not going to do this thing in four weeks, three days, and the budget’s not necessarily going to be exactly that. That puts a lot of pressure on people because, you know, some people measure themselves against timely deliverables or budget deliverables, etc. And in this world, you just. Well, it’s unrealistic to think you can do that. So you’ve got to be pretty brave in your own capability and your belief in what you can do.

Christopher Boyle:
So the challenges in that are when you work with companies that live in the mainstream, but they’re trying to adopt technology, they often don’t get it. They don’t get the rockiness of that journey and the lumps and the fact that it may not be the first solution that works and you might have to actually go through some progressions of a product.

Christopher Boyle:
How do you take them on that journey?

Christopher Boyle:
You try and do it with absolute transparency, but it requires, like offshore, especially a lot of the companies we work with, like Siemens, Brooker, asc, zeroavia, a number of aviation companies out of Australia, a pile of businesses out of the us, et cetera. They get it because they’re doing it themselves and you’re a partner in the development. So they understand the challenges. And you can have really open conversations when you come back to that more mainstream group that they’re trying to transition into a new area, but they’ve got no understanding of innovation or the technology challenge. That chasm you’ve got to overcome. You operate with transparency. You try and give them a clear example of what the risks are and that time frames are not time frames, etc. But you do your best to meet them.

Christopher Boyle:
And 99% of the time you’re good. But you do have that. You know, we’ve been doing this for 21 years. We’ve only had probably two of those bumps with customers that just don’t get it, and you just got to work through it and you either resolve it or you agree that you go your own ways. So it’s a reality. It’s not about failure. It’s just about recognizing that some companies are good for that journey and maybe others should stay in their lane.

Christopher Boyle:
So how do you price things in these types of scenarios where it works for you and it hopefully works for your customers?

Christopher Boyle:
I think it’s fair to say that Fabrum over 21 years has carried a lot of that development cost. So unintended consequences. When we set the business up, we needed some machinery to do some specific applications, but our use of it was only about 3% utilization. So therefore, you go and find work that actually uses its other 97% that starts creating this contract manufacturing business and that becomes your cash cow and all that funding gets poured into your IP development, your R and D. So you’re offsetting a lot of customer projects. With your own funding. And the benefit of that is you build an IP chest which enables you to then converge that IP onto total systems. So reality is you’ve got to have a bunch of shareholders and a board that are confident that profit is not the measure of success.

Christopher Boyle:
Maintaining financial capability is important, but you’re not in this for a dividend. You know, you’re trying to build long term value. So short answer is you fund the R and D out of your other activities.

Christopher Boyle:
Yep, yep. Yeah, it does. It does seem that there’s a lot of that goes on, you know, of getting, you know, finding other things that sort of fill in the picture and then allow the innovation to be able to be able to happen.

Christopher Boyle:
Yep, yeah, it’s a reality. I think we’ve worked with a lot of IP companies over the years as well where we’ve been part of their IP picture. So we’re developing capability for them which they ultimately end up owning. Sure, we learn skills and we build competency out of that, etc. But what we did learn was that’s a, it’s not necessarily a good place to be because what you do is you tie your success to their success. So over the last seven years we’ve become much more focused on our own product, our complete solution so that you’re not at risk of another team’s ability to deliver outcomes. We back ourselves. We’ve never failed in a project over that 21 years yet.

Christopher Boyle:
But we have definitely had some ramp ups to a no go because our partner hasn’t been able to deploy their product into a market even though our contribution to it was 200% successful.

Christopher Boyle:
That must be pretty hard to take when the team have worked so hard and you get through really challenging obstacles and then you find it’s not able to be leveraged in the way that maybe everyone was imagining. Imagining.

Christopher Boyle:
Yeah, yeah. There’s definitely some heartbreak in it. I mean the. We’re fortunate. We’ve got this incredible team of people in the business that are really focused on delivering change or value. We have this internal conversation around trading lightly. Everything we’re trying to do is actually develop technology that enables humanity to do more with less for longer. So hence tread lightly.

Christopher Boyle:
And when you put a lot of your own personal energy into a project and then it fails because your customer can’t get there. It’s difficult. We had a project we were doing into America probably 13 years ago and it had some massive technical challenges and we were doing a very small part of it and there were some issues in the Total project. So we sat with the customer in the US and you know, we convinced them that we could actually do the whole thing and we’d own the total output as a product and it would work. They signed onto that, we did that and we got the first order. It was a significant order. It was around 50 items. And these items were, you know, good value.

Christopher Boyle:
And we committed to it. It was a combination of rare earth magnetics, titanium composite plate, et cetera. We pushed hard over a couple of months to build all this kit. And just about on delivery some other IP ran out its patent life. So they pivoted to that as a known product and crashed the whole program. So basically we’ve got an instruction to feed it all through the metal scrapper, you know, and that’s, you’ve got this stunning kit that would happily sit in any architectural design studio and you’re scrapping it. So that’s it’s a little soul destroying but that’s the world, you know, at the end of the day the commercial market will only pay the minimum they can to get an outcome. So you can’t always control the output.

Christopher Boyle:
And that was the issue with working with partners. So just coming back to that one again, which is why now we try and own our own future.

Christopher Boyle:
So what do you see that looking for? What are the opportunities for instance in liquid hydrogen? It seems to be that, you know, I’ve just been the aerospace summit, there’s quite a lot of interest there. But how big do you see the opportunities being going forward?

Christopher Boyle:
Oh, that’s interesting. In New Zealand I don’t think we have an H in our Alphabet. Hydrogen doesn’t feature greatly in New Zealand. There’s a couple of companies that are working with it for say trucking. For us we see an absolute application for it, especially in heavy industry, long range truck movement, aviation especially. So the hard to abate areas with other solutions. Liquid hydrogens are high density energy source or energy vector that can be used for propulsion systems, et cetera. So that there’s definitely a use case here.

Christopher Boyle:
And most of our activity is offshore. So you know, Europe, us, uk, et cetera, charging and Australia are moving really fast with liquid hydrogen. And especially in aviation, great application.

Christopher Boyle:
Why is there so much interest?

Christopher Boyle:
Well, you know, gas use is easy, especially if you’re on the ground, but it’s heavy. You talk about this ratio between the fuel storage weight to the, to the weight of the stored fuel in it. Now when you go 350 bar or 700 bar compressed gas, you’ve probably only got 3% of total mass is actually in the fuel. But when you go to a liquid, you can grow that fuel proportion significantly. And if you go to say what our technology is, which is 100% composite, so lightweight, vacuum insulated fuel systems, then you can, you can grow that past 20% and significantly more, which is critical for aviation, where every kilogram counts. So what you want is you want most of your weight to be in fuel and less of it to be in the system. So hence why aviation works. And it’s why you’ll see other, like marine applications will go to that as well.

Christopher Boyle:
So challenge with hydrogen, of course, everyone thinks about the Hindenburg and draws all these crazy analogies to it, but it’s actually, it is safe. You design into it safety systems. For some reason, we’re just, we’re not there yet in New Zealand, but thankfully globally they are. And we’ve got some really great relationships going, especially with a couple of Australian aviation companies that are testing out our systems and we’re getting good results.

Christopher Boyle:
And what does liquid hydrogen, what are you effectively kind of competing with? You’re competing with traditional batteries. And what does that picture look like in terms of why we would expect this to scale and become a lot more common in the future?

Christopher Boyle:
I think like most things in life, there’s a smorgasbord of opportunities. So there’s no one size fits all. I mean, I’m an electrical engineer. You know, electricity, especially renewable electricity, is the absolute go to. If life was only that, it would be great. However, when your extension cord’s not long enough and you’ve got to move away from the power point, you need to find an alternate. Now, batteries have an application. We break it up and we say light and local.

Christopher Boyle:
If you’re carrying light loads and you’re not going far, then batteries work. When you start going past about 100km in a day and you need to have payload to make your business profitable, then you start going to a hydrogen solution. And when you need to get off the ground and payloads critical, fuel weight’s critical and distance is critical, then you start going to liquid hydrogen. The alternates are batteries, but they don’t play in those spaces. You know, they’re great for torches and Nissan Leafs and Teslas.

Paul Spain:
Come on.

Christopher Boyle:
And Tesla, of course. Can’t forget the Tesla. I thought the Tesla was just a mobile data acquisition system for imagery. But batteries have their place. Fossil fuels still have their place. There’s a lot of advances in minimizing emissions, et cetera. So they have a Place, gas has its place, natural gas, etc. We’re not trying to solve the whole world’s energy requirement with hydrogen, but what we are focused on is there are areas that can benefit from it.

Christopher Boyle:
And liquid hydrogen works really well for that 100 to 200 seat aircraft up to a thousand nautical miles. And if you think about New Zealand, Australia, even Europe, that’s a significant amount of flights.

Christopher Boyle:
Yes.

Christopher Boyle:
And if you’re going, you know, if the turboprops and you’re using fuel cells and liquid hydrogen, then you can actually use existing airframes. So the transition can be quite quick.

Christopher Boyle:
That’s interesting. Tell us about what you’ve been, you.

Paul Spain:
Know, what you’ve done here in Christchurch.

Christopher Boyle:
You know, what you’ve got at the airport here.

Christopher Boyle:
Well, one of the challenges of course is when you’re building liquid hydrogen products is that you’ve actually got to be able to test them before you ship them offshore. So we’ve done a couple of really interesting projects this year. One for the US which is a boil off gas system, so it captures from stored hydrogen it wants to boil off so it vents. So we capture the vent relique and put it back in the tank. So we built our own 100% Fabrum IP system there and it’s been shipped up to the US for testing. And we’ve just completed one for a university in Germany and that’s a liquid hydrogen production unit for use in a super superconducting program. Which is interesting. Before you send them, you’ve got to test them.

Christopher Boyle:
So in conjunction with Christchurch International Airport, we are utilizing some of their land beside the Runway where we’ve set up a hydrogen test facility. And what we do is we take our gear there, we operate it, we take it through full commissioning, testing. Clients come in, they do their factory acceptance test there and we make liquid hydrogen because that’s what those units do. And while we do that, we have a couple of our aviation companies come in with the tanks we’ve made for them and we go through the tank testing, performance testing of the tanks using liquid hydrogen. And obviously we also provide refueling technologies and safety systems, et cetera. So we get a chance to test all that, prove it. Yeah. So that’s probably first of its kind.

Christopher Boyle:
Globally is where you’ve got a total systems manufacturer integrator working with customers on an international airport with actual aviation systems, especially 100% composite tanks. So bit of a first, it’s quite neat here to do that in Christchurch. And there’s a number of companies that we obviously work with that. Are Christchurch based or Canterbury based that sit in that ecosystem.

Christopher Boyle:
Yeah.

Christopher Boyle:
And.

Christopher Boyle:
Why now? Why is now the time where these things are, you know, it’s all coming together.

Christopher Boyle:
So hydrogen, the use of hydrogen sort of went through this bubble, probably Ukraine war put a focus on energy restrictions or potential loss of access to certain energy. So what’s a replacement hydrogen? You take water, apply electricity, you can make hydrogen. We’re not going to get into the discussions about the efficiencies and all that. There’s a bunch of doom stars out there who will always argue against it, as they probably do against fresh air. But the reality is that groundswell of interest that was people grabbing government funding has sort of faded away. And the real players are still there, the ones that understand the application it is here as a future fuel. And in a number of applications, it’s a current fuel. Today.

Christopher Boyle:
If you talk aviation, there’s probably 30 plus aviator groups around the world that are moving with liquid hydrogen. They need solutions. There are technology challenges. You need a lightweight containment system. That aviation game’s a long game. So you need to be at the front end of that to influence and inform what’s possible. So hence why we’re focused on that. Now the second piece of that is where you’ve got the transferral of liquid hydrogen, the handling of it, the management of, you know, zero boil off, et cetera, that drives the, you know, there’s a technology void, we’re in there filling it.

Christopher Boyle:
And when you put it on an airport, for example, airports have to become comfortable with the handling of it, the use of it, overcoming the horror of the H molecule, you know, all of that sort of drama. So that needs to happen early on in the program and we’re doing it. So we believe that this technology is a great export opportunity for New Zealand. There was a smart fellow a number of years ago that did some stuff with the hydrogen atom, came out of New Zealand. So, you know, we’ve got a fairly long relationship with this molecule and it’s just another channel that’s not an app. It’s a real, real project, real product that involves a multitude of skills from manufacturing, plus R&D, construction, etc. That can support New Zealand’s fuel sovereignty, fuel independence going forward. Plus it can drive good jobs, it aligns with the Kiwis need to fly and it’s a great way of building an export business, which we’re already proving.

Christopher Boyle:
That’s why now.

Christopher Boyle:
Fantastic. Anything else to finish up? Anything else we should, we should have covered or should add in.

Christopher Boyle:
In the innovation space, we are trying to find solutions, possible solutions to current and future needs and to work in that space, you’ve got to have an open mind and not close doors too quickly. New Zealand comes out of the back of a really rich innovation, creative space. You can call it number eight, whatever, but we’re renowned for it and we’re very capable in it. The risk is that we have too many people closing doors and not allowing that process to happen. I think it’s important that we maintain an openness because I think as a country our future prosperity is aligned to innovation. That’s innovation in farming, innovation in primary products, produce, but also in technology. We’ve got a real. We own a space, you know, Rocket Labs prove that we own a space.

Christopher Boyle:
We’re very clever as a country and we’ve just got to create and maintain those opportunities to do it. I am concerned that, you know, we’re in a current climate where maybe that’s not happening and that doesn’t bode well for us into the future. So, you know, it’s off, it’s off subject, but 21 years into Fabrum and having traversed a number of world firsts and a number of patents and clear IP positions, I’m pretty proud of the team we have and what we’ve achieved. I think it’s in the DNA of Kiwis and I think it’s critical that we keep supporting this behaviour as a country for our own future prosperity. A little off subject, but you know, I think it’s an important part to understand, especially coming out of an aerospace conference.

Christopher Boyle:
Yeah, no, I really appreciate that. Well, thank you very much, Christopher Boyle. Looking forward to what comes next for Fabbram and to see the innovation continue and of course all the outcomes that come with that. So thanks for your time.

Christopher Boyle:
Pleasure. Thanks for the opportunity to talk. Cheers, Paul.

Christopher Boyle:
Cheers.

Paul Spain:
Well, I trust you’ve enjoyed hearing from Christopher Boyle.

Christopher Boyle:
So much.

Paul Spain:
There to soak in from his insightful journey as an innovative engineer and entrepreneur. The New Zealand Business podcast has been proudly brought to you by Guerrilla Technology, the information technology services firm helping astute mid size and smaller New Zealand organisations to move faster whilst minimising cyber security risks. Be sure to listen in to our other episodes featuring a who’s who of New Zealand’s most successful leaders, including founders such as Rod Drury of Zero, Cecilia Robinson of MyFoodBag, Sir Peter Beck of Rocket Lab, Brooke Roberts of Sharesies, Sir Michael Hill and many, many more. And remember that a rising tide lifts all boats and you can contribute to lifting New Zealand’s success by sharing a favourite episode or two with a friend or colleague. This is Paul Spain signing out. I’ll catch you on the next episode.

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