Paul Spain:
I’m Paul Spain, futurist and chief executive at Gorilla Technology. I love contributing to the success of of individuals and their organisations. New Zealand Business Podcast is all about this by helping you learn from our most notable leaders. In this episode I chat again with talented just water entrepreneur and keer world class New Zealander Tony Falkenstein. We delve into new insights from his business journey, including recent pivots and acquisitions and his approach to helping the next generation of of entrepreneurs which is one of Tony’s passions. New Zealand Business Podcast is brought to you by One New Zealand alongside Gorrilla Technology, tech enablement and cybersecurity risk reduction experts and Outrun Global – remote staffing to help your local teams work smarter, not harder. Before we jump into the interview, if you work in a mid size or smaller organization, think about this.

Paul Spain:
Does your organization truly have its house in order from a cybersecurity perspective or would Gorilla Technologies Cyber Audit Service help give you more visibility and confidence? Real privilege to have Tony Falkenstein joining us in the studio again. How are you Tony?

Tony Falkenstein:
Excellent. No, it’s a real privilege to be here again. Yeah, twice.

Paul Spain:
Nearly four years since we chatted last time and lots of things have obviously happened in that time. When I listened back to our previous chat I realised, oh, there’s a few areas we could delve in a little bit more and there’s some other things that you’ve been involved in in terms of encouraging entrepreneurship, particularly in schools recently and also university system. So keen to delve into those things. But maybe before I fire pepper you with lots of questions, any highlights when you look back on these last four, four year period, you know, stands out for you.

Tony Falkenstein:
Well, I think everyone’s got to look back at Covid and say pre Covid and post Covid. There seem to be a lot of changes there just generally.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh definitely. And I know you know you’ve been very much close to what’s been going on on an AI front and following that with a lot of interest. So maybe we’ll get some time to delve into that side of things as well.

Tony Falkenstein:
Terrific.

Paul Spain:
But, but yeah, first up I was thinking it’d be great to hear a little bit more around Your story with taking your business, which was just water, became Just Life Group and taking that through the process of an initial public offering an IPO on the NZX and becoming a listed company. And what were the pros and cons of that? Cause you’ve made some changes. Maybe we can go back to the beginning of that story.

Tony Falkenstein:
Okay, that’s going back a long time. But prior to starting the company that I’m in now, I was chief executive of another public company. And I always thought we started this one, we said in five years we’ll go public again. Well, it took 15 years. But the main rationale when we did it was not to raise finance, but more from a public image where you look bigger than you are. And one of the things I suppose I learned from years before another company was always try and look bigger than you are. And so that was a reason for the IPO. I mean, we only raised $8 million.

Tony Falkenstein:
We didn’t really need it, unfortunately, we spent it wrongly. But that’s life. That’s one of the badges was this

Paul Spain:
sort of moving into Australia.

Tony Falkenstein:
Moving into Australia, yeah, that wasn’t a good investment. So being public, I mean, it has this advantage when things are going well, it’s great. But I also found that when things are going bad, you just keep your head in and nobody wants to talk about it. When a company relatively small size, the challenge for a smaller company is you have to do everything the same as a big company. So you need an annual report which is 160 pages long and with all the glossy photos in it, you have to have all that and you have to go through the same processes, same order procedures. And where larger companies would have one person say on health and safety or on some other, you know, some other part of the business, as a smaller business, we wouldn’t have those. And so it is just a lot more difficult, so, and a lot more costly. So we sort of saved by moving off the NZX, we saved about $400,000.

Tony Falkenstein:
And it wasn’t the fault in effect of the NZX. I mean their fees are, you know, that much. But all the other things that go with it, the legal fees, you know, you have to use a top legal firm and all the time you do not want to breach the NZX rules and the takeover rules and all that. And so everything almost goes past legal. And then the audit again, the auditors, you have to use, you know, top grade audit firm and again they’re just a lot more expensive than the mid sized audit firms. So all the Overall costs that came to about $400,000 we saved by moving away from the NZX.

Paul Spain:
And how did that number look in terms of annual profits for you? If you’ve got another $400,000 in there, how much difference is that making?

Tony Falkenstein:
Unfortunately, it didn’t make that much difference because it was just after Covid. So we saved the money, which kept profitability and kept it about the same as it happened.

Paul Spain:
But if you’d been 400 less, then. Yeah. So it’s helpful in the scheme of things, right?

Tony Falkenstein:
Yeah. I mean, I think that we just couldn’t take advantage of the public system in terms of raising capital. And that’s where we said, hey, it’s not really. We didn’t see that happening within the next five years. So he said, hey, let’s go on to the usx, which is unlisted stock exchange, not us for format. And that’s what we’ve done.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, did. At any time did you think about, you know, pivoting and changing the business? Because I know, you know, you’ve mentioned to me about, you know, investing in, you know, quite a range of other, you know, other firms and, you know, having a kind of investment arm or, you know, building out in, you know, other directions. And obviously you’ve had acquisitions as well, and I’m keen to delve into a little bit on that front.

Tony Falkenstein:
Yeah, I mean, we decided to. So once we got over the pains of the Australian venture and got the bank happy, we looked at going into, I suppose, a construction area or the periphery of it, and started a healthy homes division. So bought a company from Wellington Home Tech and we went with that. And then from that we added on the cylinder guy. And then on the healthy living side, where we had just water, we added. We bought three supplement businesses. Now, unfortunately, we bought the healthy homes businesses right at the start of the downturn, the construction sector. And so now we’ve only got Solar tube, which is a good, great brand.

Tony Falkenstein:
And it’s done, you know, it’s people who. It’s sort of. It’s not for new business, not for new houses. So, you know, so that’s been a nice little unit. But in fact, the rest of the construction, ventilation and what have you, we’ve virtually got out of it.

Paul Spain:
Right.

Tony Falkenstein:
Right on the healthy living side, and that’s where we want to stay now, the supplement business, we, you know, we like that business. And so that’s one that we will continue in.

Paul Spain:
And so how did that change come, you know, come about and what were the opportunities that came up there.

Tony Falkenstein:
Well there’s some learnings here. So one of the learnings because we made two mistakes, one of the learnings is never buy a one man business that’s owner operated. And the reason is and we’re not big business but a medium sized business finds it really hard to run a one man show. And so we bought the Cylinder Guy which is, which was a really nice business but in terms of our overheads and things it just didn’t work. The guy we sold it to and we know him well, you know he’s going extremely well. He lives, you know, that’s what he does. He lives for Cylinder Guy.

Paul Spain:
Gotcha.

Tony Falkenstein:
One that we made a serious mistake. We only just sold it this week. In fact within the healthy living area we thought we’re in supplements, we should be in natural cosmetics and bought a business called Loveskin a year ago. Exactly 12 months ago and we just sold it this week.

Paul Spain:
Yeah. Okay.

Tony Falkenstein:
And again learning we should not be in a one man business.

Paul Spain:
Right. Yep, yep. Just didn’t work for you.

Tony Falkenstein:
So now we know we’re going to stick to our knitting and.

Paul Spain:
Yeah.

Tony Falkenstein:
And you know make the businesses we have grow and see other opportunities. We won’t go outside that healthy living area now.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, yeah. So walk us through what else you’re doing in the healthy living supplements sort of side.

Tony Falkenstein:
Well in the company we bought about Health Main one which was quite a significant purchase but they have two products in particular which was Leicester’s Oil and Resv Resveratrol and Those are really two really good products. They’ve been advertised, they’ve been on ZB for 20 odd years and so we’re certainly we’re growing those. We’ve put them through into before we were totally online. So now I’ve gone to a bit of retail terms. The other one in terms of Herbalignite, another one that’s been advertised radio for 20 odd years. We put that into Chemist Warehouse and from being an online business and now chemist warehouse takes 50% of that revenue. I mean they are such a powerful machine.

Paul Spain:
Right, right. And when you do something like that do you find that your existing business sort of gets cannibalised by the retailer or are they really, you know giving you a really big uplift in terms of your overall sales?

Tony Falkenstein:
Yeah, they give us a big, big uplift. I mean some people obviously will go over. We sort of make a different, different sized product because you know just a 30 day product for chemist Warehouse. While a lot of our online customers just buy Three months at a time.

Paul Spain:
Right, right. So you can differentiate a little bit of what you put out in that different market. So tell us a little bit more about that. You know, that acquisition of. About Health. I know we touched on a little bit last time. What was it that, you know, that led you to show interest in About Health as a, As a business initially?

Tony Falkenstein:
Well, I had actually been in a. In a supplement business in a past life and so I really liked, liked the business. This one we tried to. We tried to buy previously and I’d gone to the, to the founder and anyway, it didn’t quite, quite work. And then when I rang him three years later, he said, well, we’ve sold 30% of it.

Paul Spain:
Oh, wow.

Tony Falkenstein:
Talk to these people. And so he did. And then we bought it off them. Yeah, so that’s how that went.

Paul Spain:
And when you look back at that, do you know why they didn’t come back to come back to you? Was that it was just, I think, just naivety.

Tony Falkenstein:
Just didn’t think about it.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, yeah, okay.

Tony Falkenstein:
Probably got approached by these guys and yeah, some of them sell down a bit. The great thing about that business is I’m in the age bracket that takes those sort of supplements. And so the 55 plus, as a consumer, they’re very sticky. They tend to buy a product that they like and they stick with it. The younger supplement buyer. And supplement is a big growth area by younger people, but they tend to like this now and then that and they go from one to the other. So we like that sort of customer. And it’s a different.

Tony Falkenstein:
And the younger marketing people don’t understand it because they say, oh, we have to be on social media. But this 55+ does not. They look at Facebook and what have you, they will never buy off it, while younger people will. They’ll see something and, oh, gee, we must get that. And so you have to go back to the old traditional radio, press and tv.

Paul Spain:
Fantastic. Now, one error of your IPO was that you gave away a significant amount of shares at the time that you listed. How did that happen and why did you do that?

Tony Falkenstein:
Well, I’d always been. Well, the story is in 2001, this global entrepreneurship Monitor came out which showed that New Zealand was number one in startups. There’s 28 countries and number five. Number. Sorry, 28 of the startups lasting five years.

Paul Spain:
This is a sort of per capita type type thing. Yeah, yeah. And so. Wow. Yeah, that’s a problem.

Tony Falkenstein:
Yeah. So anyway, so I was. We were living in London at the time and the principal of Anahunger High School, which is a school I went to, he was over in London on a Wilf Fisher scholarship. And so he came and lived in our flat for a couple of days and we went down to the local restaurant and drank a bottle of wine and, and I said to him, chris, I think we should do something. Why don’t we start a business school at one Hunger? And he oh yeah, you’ll bring a proposal to me when you get onto the board. And so the next year when we were back, I did give a proposal to him which was really that to me the business education is a key to economic prosperity. And people who are in areas where they’re not, they don’t learn about business, their parents are tradesmen or whatever and so they don’t talk about business around the dining table, which is probably something like 70% of people. They’re not getting the same opportunity.

Tony Falkenstein:
And yet they are the people that know what struggle is about. They’re the ones that have a lot of the attributes that will make them successful. And so in fact, if you talk today to most business people that have started their own businesses, most of them don’t come out of, out of wealthy families, they come out of that. They just have much more the resilience to keep on going ahead. Now if they have the education, I can see that they’re really going to make this country explode. So I thought if I’m going to do anything, that’s where I want to focus.

Paul Spain:
Fantastic. And yeah, I guess, you know, I know when, you know, when we’ve looked at who our listeners are, we’re not hearing that there’s a whole lot of, you know, youngsters from high school, but there is that growing interest in entrepreneurship in startups because of the story that’s been created by the successes of the, you know, on the global scale. The sort of Elon Musk’s and Bill Gates and so on and of course, you know, here in New Zealand the likes of, you know, Peter Beck and others, so, you know, that’s really created a level of interest that, you know, wasn’t around, you know, 20, 30 years ago. So now that that interest is there, you know, what did it look like to get the business school started with one Hunga High? And what was the interest?

Tony Falkenstein:
Yeah, well, just first of all, just to comment on that, to many of them it’s just such a faraway dream. They don’t even think about it. Like, you know, it’s like being an all black. They’re so Far away that they, they can’t even dream that. And, and don’t even understand what it’s all about. So, so when we started the business school at One Hunger it was, I mean that was like a startup. We made lots of mistakes but, but it got underway and Chris Saunders who was the principal was very enthusiastic about it, became very enthusiastic about it and we hired a head of the business school and he was very enthusiastic about it. So we got to after the first year, once we had the business school going, a school that couldn’t fulfill their role was over subscribed.

Tony Falkenstein:
They picked students from all over Auckland who wanted to come because they’d heard about this business school Danny Hung. So it was really an enormous effect to such a degree that to some degree bad because the decile went from 3, 3 to 4 which means they get less money from government but they had, you know, a lot better students. Everything went, everything went up from there.

Paul Spain:
Wow. Wow. And the way it worked with your trust because you did one that was focused on being on the high on high school and then you had another trust in terms of supporting Auckland University.

Tony Falkenstein:
Yeah. So initially, well we had that trust for the university business school and it just sort of started developing monies and we spent a few things here and there. Anyway, probably about six years ago we came up with this program which we started which was taking the around 18 to 20 students to Silicon Valley in San Francisco.

Paul Spain:
Fantastic.

Tony Falkenstein:
Each year and so that’s now a 10 year program, fully committed and most of that’s from the, you know the dividends have come through from, from the company so, so we call, it’s called the Vanguard program and students are selected and, and we go, we do about last year we did 25 visits in a week. So really full on. But from us, from, from my, you know, I go on it. I mean you see some of the stories. Tim Brown, you know we saw him three or four years ago and then through his IPO and then down the other side obviously we’ve seen the guys from Halter we get to see up there. We go to Stanford, we go to various places on this, you know on this last visit I didn’t even realize we were talking to this guy I had taken back in my one hunger days to Silicon Valley and he says I remember we were in this company in Silicon Valley and in, yeah, it was in Silicon Valley and I thought this seems, it’s funny, why should it be here? Why can’t I make a global business out of New Zealand or anywhere else in the world. And there he was now. And I’m sorry, I forgot, I can tell you later on what the company was, but now it’s a global player.

Tony Falkenstein:
It’s seen as Australian one because his partner’s Australian. But, you know, he said, that was the thing that really got me going. I’m going to do a global company.

Paul Spain:
Fantastic.

Tony Falkenstein:
So that sort of thing gives you a hell of a lot of pleasure and seeing some of the success stories that come out from, you know, One Hunger and from. And from the university business school.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, brilliant. Brilliant. Yeah. I think we’ve got to keep looking for those opportunities to, yeah. Inspire and educate and get started in the world of business and entrepreneurship. You know, we’ve got to do more of that with youngsters. So, yeah, it’s great what you’ve started on that front now. More recently, Waitakere College is kicking off with the business school as well.

Tony Falkenstein:
Yeah. So Waitakere College is similar to anehanga. It’s had 50% of Polynesian or Mori, probably about another 25% come from various places, India and all sorts of places. The other 25%, European. Again, it’s a school where, again, most of the students don’t have the opportunity to really understand what business is all about. So it’s a really good. It was a really good school and a very good principal who is like Chris Sorn is very enthusiastic about doing it. And so, you know, the Ministry of Education opened it just a few weeks ago and, you know, we’re doing.

Tony Falkenstein:
We’ve done visits to Zeal, to Anna Mowbray, to our bottling plant. I’ve been behind the scenes. Auckland football, behind the scenes at Blues. We’re going out to Babbage Wines. We’re going. Mike Hutchison’s talking to us about advertising. Liam Dan is having a chat to us. So, again, these kids are seeing things and it’s.

Tony Falkenstein:
Ooh. I mean, I just can’t believe it. Some of these kids are just. Yeah, they just can’t. It’s like they’ve just never seen anything like it before.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, yeah.

Tony Falkenstein:
And suddenly they’re exposed to that and. Yeah, and they’re really coming up with some, you know, some good ideas.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, fantastic. And in terms of how long would you expect to take to get that business school, you know, established and I guess seeing results like, you know, how quickly do you see that kind of impacting the way people are thinking and then, you know, operating in terms of launching their own things?

Tony Falkenstein:
It happens in different ways. I mean, some, when I look at some of the only. Well, if I look at the girl who runs mocks brands from, who came from the Yara Hunga Business school and she, she worked for Anna Mowbray in China and what have you and then came back and so she’s probably be in her mid-30s, but now started her own company and I think Mox was the biggest growth company or something in New Zealand last year. Her sister who also went. Came to at that stage, went to New York with us. She’s a global, global manager for one of the big travel companies based out of Amsterdam. So they carried different ways. Another girl who very quickly from Ayla Hunger, started a business which was fantastic.

Tony Falkenstein:
It was called Stay Today. It was too early and she went right around hotels so you could book it on the day and so you got the best rate and so she’d go to hotels and, and just got a. I think it was 25% commission and got them to understand that. And after a couple of years it sort of. She really couldn’t get funding, et cetera. And after she got out of it, you know, the big ones came in and you know, they’re now worth billions of dollars that do that same sort

Paul Spain:
of thing, copy the same, taking the same approach.

Tony Falkenstein:
And so she’s now gone to a corporate area, but now she’s looking to set up, you know, do something, do something different.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, yeah.

Tony Falkenstein:
By yourself.

Paul Spain:
Yeah. Great to hear these stories and know that it’s, it’s having an impact.

Tony Falkenstein:
See, all you’re doing is opening up their eyes and that’s what I’m really looking for. Open up your eyes. Hey, there are opportunities out there, whether you, whether you do it yourself or whether you work with someone else. But don’t just stop at, you know, at your little suburb and say, hey, that’s as far as I’m going to go.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, yeah. And in terms of, you know, how that’s worked with establishing the trusts, giving them shares in the business. And is that something that, you know, was an initial kind of donation or seed investment into the trust or is that something you needed to keep funding in other ways or the shares and dividends, you know, effectively kept that able to operate?

Tony Falkenstein:
Yeah, generally the dividends have been enough to cover everything. And there’s certainly quite a bit in the New Zealand Business Education Trust in terms of university, because I wanted to commit to 10 years. Also wanted to make sure that the money was there in case I carcut or something. So that took a bit of personal stuff put in to just add to the fund.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, yeah. And how do you do that to, you know, or how does the university, you know, do their part to make that work? Because it’s not a low cost thing to be flying people up to Silicon Valley.

Tony Falkenstein:
Yeah, well, this thing, you know, it costs. I know. I think it’s around about 120,000 a year to do this trip, which is increasing. Fortunately, they do all the background work. So they assess the people who. They not only have to fit the. You have to fit the criteria that they’re going to be okay to tour. And each group we’ve taken really just been fabulous students and just smart students.

Tony Falkenstein:
Boy, they just. You don’t want to, you don’t want to be at the front of the front of the front of the room with these questions that get asked. I mean, these guys are really good.

Paul Spain:
Yeah.

Tony Falkenstein:
I can tell you a story on, I mean, from the last trip, one of the guys had such a great background story. I mean, I, you know, I just fell in love with the story. I said, this guy is gonna, he’s gonna make it, right? And I still can’t understand what it is, but it beams light off satellites and all this data and comes down on the earth and it can say, hey, you’re having enough potassium in your land here or enough nitrogen or too much whatever. And he was so enthusiastic about it, I said, hey, listen. But working office just had no money at all and nowhere they were scrounding around to get a room at the BNZ they used and other rooms just to operate from. So we gave them some space in our offices. And I said, listen, if you get the funding, I’ll in fact put some money in. And so last week he did get $750,000 from Icehouse, Icehouse Ventures.

Tony Falkenstein:
And since then he’s had K1W1 and others coming in who also wanted to be in this. He wanted to do 1 million, which would put a market cap of 4 million. And this kid left home when he was 14, got a little scholarship to Delhi University, got over to the us, did something there, came down to New Zealand. Always living off smell of an oily rag. Even a few weeks ago, he says, I just have to get to this conference in Colorado, which he’s going to next week. I had the money for one way. And so he always finds a way, though. And he says, I wrote to them.

Tony Falkenstein:
And I said, hey, listen, I can present a paper there, which is, everyone’s going to be worthwhile, but you had to pay my one trip back.

Paul Spain:
Yeah.

Tony Falkenstein:
And so, and so they agreed to it and so now he can get back. And on top of that, since he left home, comes out of a village in India. Since he left home, he hasn’t been back. It’s been 10 years.

Paul Spain:
Wow.

Tony Falkenstein:
So he’s going back to see his family.

Paul Spain:
Yeah.

Tony Falkenstein:
Really great.

Paul Spain:
Well, it’s so exciting to, you know, to see and hear these stories, you know, coming through. And as you talked about the beginning, you know, we, we seem to generate a lot of startups, but of course we’ve got to make, we’ve got to make it work so that we’re getting, you know, success building successful long term, you know, businesses that, that do well and, you know, good for our economy and for our people.

Tony Falkenstein:
You know, even this guy, I mean, just naive about a lot of things. And although I don’t understand the whole process that he’s in, I can at least advise him and you know, some of the, some of the security on this data was so important to him. He wasn’t protecting and just a lot of smaller things that I could just give him some advice on.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, yeah. Oh, that’s, that, that’s great. And look, I think, you know, we need to do, we need to do more of, of what you’re doing in terms of investing into, you know, that next generation of founders and entrepreneurs in terms of, you know, your, your approach. You’ve mentioned that you would invest with him. Have you got a particular approach that you follow when it comes to investing into other firms? Cause I’m sure there’ll be lots of people who have knocked on your door in the past and that will continue. How do you decide what to invest in? How much of it is the idea, how much of it is the founder? You know, how do you evaluate those sorts of things?

Tony Falkenstein:
Well, I have to say I’m not really a big, a big investor. I mean, I’d rather, I do get asked all the time. Like this one was just loved the kid, loved what he had done and very presentable. Otherwise. Now I’m really only doing things through the company, through Just Life Group. Otherwise if I buy it, go at the investment market, I tend to buy at the top and sell at the bottom. And I don’t think that’s a good investment strategy.

Paul Spain:
So, yeah, I guess there’s lessons in there probably for all of us. Right. You could be very good at these things at business and entrepreneurship, but I guess it doesn’t mean that we should all become investors.

Tony Falkenstein:
That’s right. I mean, I’m much more better at an operational point of view and proved that I’m not the best investor.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, yeah. Was there anything else on about health you think might be of interest to listeners?

Tony Falkenstein:
You know, I certainly like the target market we’re in and understanding that consumer. And I think although they might be dying off, there are others coming into that market, but they are, they’re just a reliable consumer, which makes it a lot easier as a marketer than dealing with the, you know, under 40s.

Paul Spain:
So there’s a lot to be said about understanding your customer, you know, deeply. And when you know, when you have that knowledge and that understanding, you know, it becomes much easier to deliver what they want and to make a, make a business really work.

Tony Falkenstein:
Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, they don’t want to be, they don’t want to feel as though they’re being sold to and they want to feel as, they want to feel confident in a brand. And so it’s a. Yeah, I mean, we, who else? I mean, we deal with, say, Herbal Ignite is a bit different there. We, you know, we have to go out and really, you know, talk to those customers and in a different, totally different way.

Paul Spain:
Yep, yep, yep. And so what? Because you, you run radio advertising there as well?

Tony Falkenstein:
Yeah. So in fact, the product got invented by former radio DJ Tim Bickerstaff, I think. Okay, so he invented the product and so, yeah, we’ve been on radio for 20 odd years with that product. But it’s quite a, you know, it’s quite a sensitive product to talk to. I mean, we sort of say, hey, it’s a natural alternative to Viagra. And so it’s. But it makes it. We thought we could do it in the US because I’ve been up there and there’s nothing really that’s like that in the market.

Tony Falkenstein:
But I mean, we had a year’s time before the next show up there to get onto Amazon and you really have to be on Amazon to be in the US market because you just go to Amazon first to see if it’s there. If it’s not there, you’re not even, you don’t even get in touch. We just, we used the best lawyers we could find in the us Et cetera. We could not get onto Amazon. You don’t have to mention anything, you know, libido or something and nah, you’re out. And then, I mean, they did everything to try and stop us. In effect, they, they didn’t like, you know, we had, there’s a central testing, worldwide testing authority that tested our product and now they Wanted different worldwide testing and they did everything. So in the end we said, hey, we’re better off not being there.

Paul Spain:
Was that when you acquired, you know, the product, was that part of your view was international expansion for it was that kind of part.

Tony Falkenstein:
We did think that there was a, it was a nice niche product. And you know, we said, hey, we can’t really go with a mass product line because there’s so many, everybody’s in it. But maybe with a niche product we could go there and we’re still, I mean, we haven’t lost sight of that. I mean, you know, there are other markets, particularly, you know, the Middle East. I mean, Chemist Warehouse are now up in Dubai and we look at that market, we think that’s a market that could take it.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, that’s an interesting approach, isn’t it? You do deal well with a local retailer with a global presence and you might well be able to, you know, stretch out through, through that channel.

Tony Falkenstein:
Yeah, I mean that’s we, what we like about Chemist Warehouse is, you know, if you see that line going up there like that, it becomes a lot easier to get into the next market, into Australia and into anything else they’re in.

Paul Spain:
Yep, yep. And obviously Chemist Warehouse, I’m presuming they’re an Australian, you know, they’re Australian founder chain. They’ve done very well here in the, in the New Zealand market. What are you seeing from New Zealand players? You know, there’s a little bit of, you know, activity and you know, we like to have Kiwi owned companies but sometimes it’s really the international players that will come in and kind of show us how, you know, how retail or other areas of business should be done.

Tony Falkenstein:
Well, just a story on that. So Jack Gantz, who owns Chemist Warehouse, he and I launched Listpex in New Zealand way back in the early 80s.

Paul Spain:
Yeah.

Tony Falkenstein:
So he and I are very, very good friends and we’re in a business group together that we meet once every three months. But yeah, I mean, just done a fantastic job.

Paul Spain:
Yeah.

Tony Falkenstein:
So, you know, I think there’s, there’s another discount pharmacy that started here. I mean they are doing very, very well in New Zealand. In Australia there were a lot more, there’s a lot more competition at discount end and there. But I think they’re finding New Zealand just unbelievable.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, well, yeah, I think there was, there was certainly a gap, you know, a gap in the market there. So yeah, well, well done to them. Now something else that, that you’ve done is you launched the entrepreneurs Organization here in New Zealand. Going back what, around 30 years ago.

Tony Falkenstein:
30 years ago.

Paul Spain:
Tell us how, how that came about and you know, what does that look like today?

Tony Falkenstein:
Well, I was in another organization and telling you how long ago it was called Young Presidents Organization.

Paul Spain:
Ypo. Yeah, yeah.

Tony Falkenstein:
And I must have gone to the bathroom or something because I came out and they said, hey listen, you’re launching EO in New Zealand. And so I got six, around about half a dozen people together and we got it launched and then we started. One of the Americans came down. So it’s an American based organization and since then, you know, we’ve worked, had about a thousand people go through but they’re, you know, there’s about a hundred members of it and I’m still a member. I mean you get enormous benefits from, because whether they’re, you know, whether a smaller business. So they all have to have it have a minimum turnover of a million US dollars. So they’re just past a startup stage. But a lot of them have got, you know, 100 million.

Tony Falkenstein:
In fact, I went to one conference in Hong Kong and met this guy who’s asked him, what do you do in transport? Anyway, in the end he owned Cathay Airways. So it doesn’t matter what level you are, you all run through, you go through the same sort of things, the ups and downs of just being in business. And so it’s a really, you know, people call it their tribe. It’s like, you know, that’s what it is. Everyone’s in, everyone’s the same in terms of the things they go through.

Paul Spain:
Yeah. Fantastic. And so, you know, first of all with YPO and then with eo, what did you, you know, personally, you know, find was most helpful because I guess, you know, every leader, every organization, you know, probably has different challenges, but also with so many similarities, there’s bound to be somebody else that’s been through something similar or got some expertise that they can share. So you know, I mean, how did that look like? Because you’ve been doing this now for, you know, for decades.

Tony Falkenstein:
Well, they have a program, a forum where you get together with eight to ten people from the, from the chapter and you meet once a month and everything is confidential. So whether it’s business, personal or family. And so very quickly you develop absolute trust within that, within that group. And because they come from different businesses, they have different approaches. So if you’re in one industry group, everyone sort of has that industry. Same thinking. Here you’ve got someone running one business, another one totally different and says, hey, we did this. Ever thought of doing something like that.

Tony Falkenstein:
And it’s those ideas that are just flowing all the time and people feel, you know, feel they can be vulnerable and be quite open about what’s happening in their business and very helpful. You know, during COVID you know, some of them in travel businesses, for example, I mean, they, they, they just needed someone they could talk to and having those groups is really beneficial.

Paul Spain:
And I mean, I went along to one of the entrepreneurs Organization’s events a little while ago. Obviously you, you, you were one of the many entrepreneurs that was, was there to, to chat to. Are there any, you know, particular, you know, leaders that stand out that you’ve met in those groups and you know, that have maybe got a lot out of the group or have contributed a lot?

Tony Falkenstein:
Well, you would have found, I mean there’s a, there’s a real buzz.

Paul Spain:
Yeah,

Tony Falkenstein:
they love being there, I think

Paul Spain:
because it’s often, yeah, it’s often talked about that, you know, when you’re leading a business that could be, could be a lonely, a lonely endeavour. So, you know, that’s, I guess one of the, you know, one of the great things is you’re getting together with other people that, you know, that understand what you’re deal dealing with.

Tony Falkenstein:
There are a lot of people that have sold their businesses and, and yeah, I mean they put it right down to where. What’s growing that business. I mean, I like just seeing some of those businesses there.

Paul Spain:
Yeah.

Tony Falkenstein:
When they start and to see them, see them grow. Others, you know, they, they don’t survive. But the ones that do survive are. Yeah, yeah, it’s great. Some great stories there.

Paul Spain:
Yeah. And, and you know, when you look at, you know, why, why the thing, you know, the things you’ve done have done well and when you look at, you know, others where you’ve obviously seen, you know, businesses come and go and some of them not survive. What would you say are the things that, that, that are kind of the, the traits of those that maybe, you know, survive versus those that, those that, that don’t in their, in their leaders?

Tony Falkenstein:
I think a lot of it is just cash, cash flow. So I’m very big, you know, make the statement profit as a matter of opinion. Cash as a matter of fact. And I want to see more cash in my bank at the end of the year than beginning of the year. So starting, starting with that. A lot of them, they don’t have the margin to, you know, I look at some businesses now and I think it won’t survive and it cannot survive. There’s one that you know, I called out to and. Cause I know, you know, it’s in sort of similar rental business.

Tony Falkenstein:
And I know he wasn’t interested in really talking to me. I thought that business, I just know it cannot survive. So I think some of the traits, not understanding that others, you know, I think it’s resilience is really a big factor. You know, getting through Covid was a big one for a lot of them. But I think when they’re thinking of, when they’re thinking of buying, selling, I mean, that’s always, you know, a lot of people have been through all that. I can’t think of anyone else who’s ever gone public from here.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, yeah. And I guess, you know, we’re in this time where there are a lot of startups that traditionally, you know, don’t make money for quite some, quite some time. Do you think that’s, that’s a, that’s a problem when, you know, businesses ultimately need to make money. But of course we’ve seen, you know, some great examples, you know, along the, along the way of, you know, businesses that might be 10, 20 years in, you know, in some cases we say, you know, Rocket Lab, you know, they’re, you know, stretching themselves, they’ve, you know, increased their, you know, their share price, you know, considerably, you know, Xero for, you know, for a long time we’re not a profitable company. You know, even Amazon were in that category. So there are, you know, there are these ones, but it tends to be a pretty small number where, you know, what they’re doing is, you know, is. I don’t even know how, you know, how you describe their opportunities. But with very big opportunities that, you know, a huge amount of investment gets put into and it’s clear to investors that long term they’re going to do well.

Paul Spain:
But you can’t do that with the typical business, can you? You need to be turning a profit pretty quick.

Tony Falkenstein:
Well, I know the tech sector think they invented recurring income, but we had in the rental business. So when you start, you’re buying a piece of capital and you’re not getting your money back. We went for six years before we made a profit because you’re investing it always into new product and watching that rental income. In our case, it was easier because the banks could see that. So I mean, we started with very little money, but the banks could see that if we put out a water cooler, over time it’s going to, they can see the automatic payments are going through. So over time that’s going to get repaid in fact, I think we got it down to before the first bank called up their money. It was only nine months they had to wait for and everything we had borrowed would have been repaid back. Now they didn’t quite understand that cash flow funding, while another bank that we went to who were now with the bnz, they understood it and so they’ve packed us ever since.

Tony Falkenstein:
So students coming out now all want to go. The first thing they do is go knocking on doors looking for money. And some of the, I sometimes think that some of the ideas just, they’re very hard to get off the ground and it’s a pity they waste that time. They’re very, very smart individuals and if they did something else, they could. In terms of getting a lot more money, they could. Or if they waited a bit and had a bit more money to put their own money in, they can, you know, they could earn high incomes.

Paul Spain:
So yeah, maybe you can just give us an overview of the Waitakere College School of Business scholarships.

Tony Falkenstein:
I think this time with the Waitakere College School of Business we’ve got the model, right? And so it’s one that I think that we can move into other schools. It’s not an expensive thing, but I think one of the things that Chris Saunders said, the initial headmaster principal of Anahunga High School, he said you have to, you have to really say, hey, that’s what we want to be. Now other schools might be, might be, you know, say they want to be. We want to have the best chefs or we want to do car maintenance, whatever. But if you want to be a business school, you need the sign out. You are a business school. And that’s what Waitakery did. They.

Tony Falkenstein:
We did some pre marketing, not overly successful. But in West Auckland we’re known, hey, if your kid. And I think next year they’re going to be overthrown by kids from West Auckland and say, hey, we want to go that way. Taqueri College, they’ve got a business school there. Having a space that is a business school, that’s important, right?

Paul Spain:
So they’ve got a dedicated, dedicated part

Tony Falkenstein:
on campus and then, and then just really saying, hey, you know, I suppose it’s like having your main product and saying that’s what we want to be. So we’ve launched, I mean we’ve got. See the tertiaries are very, very keen to help because if you learn French, you start about year nine, by the time you get to university, you know a bit of French. So they can start, they can take you from here and go to there. But with business, if you’ve come from a school where, you know, where your parents are not in business and they haven’t done anything at school, they’re starting from scratch. So that’s why they’ve had the University of Auckland Business School, AU Waikato Management School have all put in scholarships to take these students. So they know, hey, wow, these guys are going to, are going to have some nous when they come to school, come to university and they’re also going to be a lot more dedicated because they’re, they know, hey, it’s a struggle to go to university like a lot of them will. You know, one of the girls said to me from the, from the school says, I’m really going for that scholarship.

Tony Falkenstein:
There’s no way I’ll ever get to university if I don’t get that scholarship. So really important. And it’s a scholarship that is $8,000 a year. So it really covers everything. So they can or be able to get university without asking their family for more money.

Paul Spain:
So this is a three year scholarship. So they’ve got but basically $24,000 coming in over that first year.

Tony Falkenstein:
As long as they pass.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, three years. Yep, yep. So you gotta set that bar. Yeah, yeah, that’s great. And so how many scholarships are there available?

Tony Falkenstein:
There are five scholarships.

Paul Spain:
Yeah.

Tony Falkenstein:
So it’s gonna be interesting.

Paul Spain:
And how many you know, would be going through the business school At Waitakere

Tony Falkenstein:
College this year There are about 32 who are doing accounting, economics and business and there are about 80 all up doing business studies. Now to get one of these scholarships you can do it with just business studies because if you were doing a marketing degree, you don’t have to do accounting or economics. So say the whole 80 are going to come down to five scholarships if they want to do that, but they want to go into a trade or whatever. You just need those business skills. I spoke to a girl the other day who was a just had nothing in their degree was about business. They all have to run a little business. Same with doctors. I mean nothing in their degree about business.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, it’s fantastic to have that kicked off and operating and I think it’s definitely going to be a draw card for them. And it’s something that’s good for New Zealand.

Tony Falkenstein:
So it’s good to see government are encouraging financial literacy from year one to ten. You might have seen David Seymour has floated an idea of Year 11 students investing in businesses again to encourage financial literacy. The YES Program Young Entrepreneurs Program has just been Very successful. And so that’s really, really good program for people to get into.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, great. Before we finish up, wondering if you’ve got some tips for listeners, anyone listening in, something that they could put into action in how they operate from a leadership perspective or, you know, something that they can do in their business that, you know, that comes from your toolkit. Tony?

Tony Falkenstein:
Well, I suppose culture is everything and energy zappers don’t make good people. So I think, you know, just not having a hierarchy that people, that people should be able to venture if they’ve got a problem or if they think something’s not fair, they should be able to say it to somebody, but they shouldn’t talk to each other about such when they don’t know why. So we say to people, hey, listen, we’ll always tell you why we can’t tell you something. And often it’s because, hey, we’re still a public company. We can’t tell you something until we’ve told the public it’s. Yeah. So energy zappers are not allowed.

Paul Spain:
Yep, yep, yep. And so, you know, what, what, what does that tend to look like in practice? If you’ve got, you got an energy zapper within your organization, what’s they get zapped? How do you work through, you know, that, that with people. I think you said you, you know, last time that, you know, you like to create an environment where people are having fun and enjoying themselves. And if, you know, if they’re not having fun, you know, you encourage them. Look, if you’re not enjoying yourself here, then maybe this isn’t the right place to be. Is that part of the encouragement?

Tony Falkenstein:
I think there’s a question that your listeners can take on. Yeah, the best question ever is you sit them down and say, you’re not happy, are you? And then pause and either if they say, yeah, I’m really happy doing my job. Well, hey, you’re not showing it, saying you’re not happy. Well, hey, what is it? It’s something we can do or it’s something you have to do. One or the other. And so it’s a good question to just get something happening, something rolling on it because you just don’t want them sitting there and. Yeah. Mining to everybody else.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, yeah, yep. Okay, that’s good. Now, we were going to delve into the unlisted stock exchange. Yeah, tell us. I’d just like to hear a little bit more around going, you know, going, you know, from the NZX to unlisted stock exchange, usx. You know, what did that Actually practically look like. How much different is that for your shareholders to work with? And what does it mean for those who would like to buy shares or sell their shares?

Tony Falkenstein:
Yeah, I think it’s not a platform that brokers particularly like. It’s almost one they have to comply with and they have to buy and sell shares through. I mean, there are a lot of companies on there, Esprit and some of the wine companies are on there. So at the time we had to get 50% of the shareholders, excluding me, I wasn’t allowed to vote, that wanted to move from the NZX to the usx.

Paul Spain:
And USX is New Zealand based.

Tony Falkenstein:
New Zealand based, yeah, yeah. And the directors had to. Well, didn’t, in this case, did not make a recommendation, much to the chagrin of the shareholder association. But we went through the process and so it got past an annual meeting. We then almost the next day the current directors decided to resign and the new directors came in pretty quickly. So. So, and that was quite good because the older, there was nothing wrong with them, but they were much more public company compliant, very compliant people. While, you know, we’ve taken on someone who had, who had just sold their cosmetics business, which suited us.

Tony Falkenstein:
They were used to dealing with pharmacies and what have you, then a girl who’s like a futurist and very up to date with AI. So that was. That’s just beneficial for us on an operating level. Much more, a much more operating friendly basis. And because now we have less compliance, still have to do all the compliance. And I think if, you know, as we said, we may one day come back to the nzx, so we’ll be able to do it very easily. We comply with everything, but can be a lot more flexible. We still have an annual meeting.

Tony Falkenstein:
We advise shareholders what’s going on. But probably because brokers don’t really like dealing in it, there is not that much dealing in shares.

Paul Spain:
And in terms of your asset, when you have shares and it’s going through the unlisted stock exchange, I guess it’s not as liquid as being on traditional stock exchange. Over the years, you’ve seen a fair variance in terms of, I guess, your market cap. How does that look today? How much do you think about share price and market cap?

Tony Falkenstein:
Yeah, I think, well, first of all. So when we went from unlisted, first of all, we took anyone who had 5,000 shares or less, we bought them out or the company bought them out. So that brought us down from 650 to about 300. We then offered. I then Offered to. Or my family company offered to buy other shares up to a certain amount. So he got down to it. We’re now down to just over a hundred shareholders.

Tony Falkenstein:
So people could get out since then? I don’t know, there’s probably. There hasn’t been that many trades. Probably, I don’t know, probably two or three a month.

Paul Spain:
Right. Because you’ve got a much smaller group there as well.

Tony Falkenstein:
And so. Yeah, so the market cap to me wouldn’t worry me one way or the other because at the end of the day someone would value the company and would get us real value. So there is no real value, I suppose.

Paul Spain:
And so what would you imagine at some point in time someone’s gonna knock on the door and want to buy the business that just would go through a normal sort of valuation type process? Is that how you would see that at some point? Because you probably won’t want to run it forever, will you?

Tony Falkenstein:
Well, I don’t know about that, but I think the, I think both the water business and the supplement businesses are salable businesses internationally. The supplement business in particular. I mean international companies circling all the time. So I think that that could be sold very easily and I have no idea. And the water business, again, it’s a lovely recurring just cash flow business. It’s just keeps on generating cash now. Yeah. So.

Tony Falkenstein:
Because it hasn’t, you know. And there’s the great thing about the rental business. When you stop growing, you’re just putting out cash because you’re not buying a lot of, a lot of coolers.

Paul Spain:
Yeah.

Tony Falkenstein:
So they’re both, they’re both good businesses.

Paul Spain:
Yeah. And clearly you, you enjoy running them and.

Tony Falkenstein:
Yeah, and I, I enjoy running them. And people say when you’re going to retire. I say when I stop. Stop enjoying it.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tony Falkenstein:
I don’t, I don’t know what I’d do if I. I mean I love playing tennis, but. Yeah, but I think you get sick of that after a while of playing every day.

Paul Spain:
That’s good. So I mean, where to from here? You enjoy the business? The business is going well.

Tony Falkenstein:
We’re always looking for opportunities. So we’d look for acquisitions in terms of the healthy living area from within. Yeah, we’re looking at doing, looking at some international things that we might do. Could do, but I suppose. Yeah, always looking for something, something interesting to do.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, yeah.

Tony Falkenstein:
People hate it when I come back from a holiday or something and I have this subject as I’ve been thinking. I hate that.

Paul Spain:
So you come back with lots of ideas. Is that yeah, that’s what happens when you get that time to unplug a bit.

Tony Falkenstein:
Yeah. I think you just come back with again if you just go overseas just doing something different. Yeah, you just come back with different things that, you know, go around in my brain.

Paul Spain:
Is that important for you to take that thinking time out?

Tony Falkenstein:
It really is, but I do it like just even going on a trip to Australia or something. Just getting out of the day to day for a few, you know, for a few weeks or a few days is always good. There’s always something I’m very, very big on utilizing my subconscious overnight. So, you know, I’m something. Yeah. So I sleep well by never taking something to sleep but knowing that it’s going to be there and next morning I’m able to make a better judgment or a better decision or I’ve thought up a new idea or a new way of doing something or whatever.

Paul Spain:
And do you find that when you wake up in the morning you’ve got ideas immediately that you have to write down or do they come to you over, in, over the course of the day?

Tony Falkenstein:
No, I have a very stringent. I have. The golden hour is after I get up where nobody’s up except the cat and the dog. And once I’ve fed them, I go onto my laptop and either I’m answering emails, I’ve just got a total fresh mind. I’m a morning person, a total fresh mind. And yeah, I’m doing things, sending out messages to managers or something. I then do some exercise, I’m do some stretching and then have a pretty. I’m not big on fasting.

Tony Falkenstein:
I have a reasonable. I have a breakfast, you know, muesli breakfast and then normally some bit of taste, et cetera, but that’s my morning routine. And then probably take the dog out for a walk and try and get to work by 9 o’. Clock.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, yeah. Oh, that’s fascinating. Yeah. I always find it interesting to understand how, you know, what the habits are.

Tony Falkenstein:
Sometimes I will wake up in the middle of the night and something, you know, three o’ clock in the morning and something will have gone off, off in my brain.

Paul Spain:
Yes.

Tony Falkenstein:
And we have a product called Lester’s Nightcap, which is, which is really just a natural, natural product, soothing product and it works, it just takes. Takes that off me and I go back to sleep again if I have to. I’ll go and get that.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, that’s very good. And how do you track and collate your ideas? If you have a lot of ideas, how do you get from you know, those ideas to working out what are the things that you’re going to, you’re going to really take action on.

Tony Falkenstein:
Yeah, I mean we have a good team of people just inside the senior guys who will poo poo it or whatever. I’m also, to some degree, I am patient. So I’ve got a concept now that we’re working on and I think it probably won’t happen for another year, but I’m quite patient on getting, getting these buttons right and working out how we’re going to do it. And yeah, I think that we’re, you know, I mean I am an optimist, there’s no doubt about that, but I think also a realistic optimist.

Paul Spain:
Good, good. And now a little bit of a pivot. Keen to hear your thoughts on where AI fits in.

Tony Falkenstein:
That just blows my mind. I mean that’s the most exciting thing. I get really excited by it and I’m just a baby in the whole thing, but suddenly technology’s caught up with me and so, yeah, I mean I can just take all these numbers that the guys give me and just get it down to what I want. And then just within the company, I mean there are just so many things that first of all, an interesting, I suppose, journey in that our senior executive leadership teams, the four of us, we’ve sort of been learning off each other as we go and I mean just every month there’s something and there’s tried this and tried that, so we’ve learned, which has helped our own personal efficiency and then we’re other people to the next layer down. We’ve now paid for a co pilot license for all of them and we’re encouraging at every meeting that hey, what have you done? What have you used? How have you used it? And so we’re learning a bit off each other all the time as we go along. I mean it’s just the agents, they come along and agents and oh, it’s just phenomenal. I mean I told you about this Hades. I mean, I mean they’re, they’re just so far advanced.

Tony Falkenstein:
But you know, there’s a guy that’s doing all this data. He’s got, he’s got an agent, he’s got six sub agents which are like having six, eight PhDs working for him.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, yeah.

Tony Falkenstein:
And he just gives the good instructions and off they go and work and. Yeah, yeah, I mean it’s just, it’s just phenomenally the opportunities and the dangers, I suppose.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, yep. There’s definitely two, two sides, I think always to, to the possibility of technological tools.

Tony Falkenstein:
Yeah, but the exciting, yeah, I’m on the exciting bit at the moment. Exciting ride.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, fantastic. And how important has the role of, or has technology enablement been within, within your business over the years?

Tony Falkenstein:
Yeah, I mean, we’re just putting in a new ERP system probably. It wouldn’t surprise me if within a year you’d say, why don’t we do that? We could have got AI to do all. Just taking our legacy system and do all that. But anyway, we’re doing that. I think AI is just, you know, people said, you know, when the Internet came in, that was fantastic and that would, people would lose jobs, et cetera. AI is a just holder that’s just so far ahead of that. It’s happening so fast and just, it’s just mind boggling. But it’s an exciting ride.

Paul Spain:
Yeah, yeah. Do you have concerns around what impact it might have on employment?

Tony Falkenstein:
Yeah, I really do. If we lose a whole lot of, if we go even a 10% of the workforce out that one, it could cause civil unrest. But suddenly you’re losing a lot of customers too. So you might be all so efficient now as a company, but now you’ve got no customers to sell to.

Paul Spain:
Yeah.

Tony Falkenstein:
And so that’s the dilemma. And I don’t know how that’s going to, how that’s going to end out in the end.

Paul Spain:
Well, thank you so much, Tony Falkenstein. It’s been a real privilege to have you back on the show and lots of insights covered and you know, we’ve delved into a bunch more that we didn’t on the last one. Of course, I’m sure some listeners will be, we’ll be going back to Listen to the 2022 interview with you, but it’s been an absolute privilege to talk with you again. Thank you so much.

Tony Falkenstein:
No, it’s been a privilege to be here again.

Paul Spain:
Thank you, Tony. All the best.

Tony Falkenstein:
Okay, cheers, Paul.

Paul Spain:
Well, I trust you enjoyed hearing from Tony Falkenstein. New Zealand Business Podcast has been brought to you by One New Zealand alongside Gorrilla Technology, tech enablement and cybersecurity risk reduction experts and Outrun Global – Remote staffing to help your local teams work smarter, not harder. Be sure to listen in to our other episodes featuring many of New Zealand’s most successful leaders and founders including Brooke Roberts of Sharesies Sir Peter Beck of Rocket Lab, Cecilia and James Robinson Robert of My Food Bag Intend, Sir Stephen Tyndall, Sir Graham Henry and many more. And be sure to share this episode with a friend or colleague who you think will benefit from it. This morning I was asked to answer some questions for a radio news bulletin about a cyber related incident in a smaller Kiwi organisation whose reputation was was being impacted in real time. My question to you is, have you had a cyber audit in the last 12 months and do you now have in place the right processes to ensure your team are passing all technology selection and configuration decisions through an appropriate cyber risk review process? If you’re not fully confident, get in touch with Gorilla Technology today. Well, thanks for listening in. This is Paul Spain signing out for another episode.

Paul Spain:
I’ll catch you on the next one. See you then.